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<OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Tickets: Ticket #1952 (enhancement created): Add more @shoulds and junit test cases <http://dev.openmrs.org/ticket/1952> || OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11367]: LDAP: french properties <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11367>
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<OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11368]: ldap: Temporary mod including my crude work. <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11368>
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<OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11369]: ldap: Temporary mod including my crude work. <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11369>
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<OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Forum: Re: API Exception on stand alone app <http://forum.openmrs.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=535#p1965>
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<OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Tickets: Ticket #1953 (task created): Velocity errors in HTML form entry <http://dev.openmrs.org/ticket/1953>
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<OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11370]: ldap: Update on the Interfaces <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11370>
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<Echidna> ,
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<pascal`> `
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<Echidna> i was cleaning my kb
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<pascal`> heh
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<Echidna> spilled coffe over the desk =/
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<OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Tickets: Ticket #1954 (task created): De-duplication of concept IDs and updating corresponding obs <http://dev.openmrs.org/ticket/1954>
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<OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Forum: seperation between the links <http://forum.openmrs.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=536#p1966>
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<pascal`> hey upul
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<pascal`> !seen upul
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<OpenMRSBot> pascal`: upul was last seen in #openmrs 1 week, 6 days, 2 hours, 19 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <upul> have a nice weekend :-)
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<upul> did you have a nice weekend :-)
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<pascal`> heh
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<pascal`> i think so upul, how was your trip?
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<pascal`> bbiab
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<upul> it was okay
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<upul> i like singapore they have good people running the country
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<upul> there must have 10000 clothes stalls in bangkok around where we stayed
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<OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Forum: Re: seperation between the links <http://forum.openmrs.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=536#p1967>
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<OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11371]: chica_ccd * changed some jsp code because it was not supported by a newer ⦠<http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11371>
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<SparFux> Hi all.
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<pascal`> hi SparFux
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<Echidna> hi
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<SparFux> Hey, crowded channel :-)
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17:43:44
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<Echidna> most action takes place on the mailing lists
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17:44:54
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<SparFux> Yes, mailing lists. I have bad experience with them. few answers to my questions. But I don't know the openmrs mailing list.
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<pascal`> SparFux, http://openmrs.org/wiki/Community
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<Echidna> you're like the third person from germany to ever come to this channel, i think
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<pascal`> What about that wierdo KeelHaul
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<pascal`> ;-P
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<Echidna> no u
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<SparFux> Well, ... how do you know I am from germany?
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<Echidna> SparFux: your hostmask
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<SparFux> ok.
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<SparFux> Anyway, I think 3 is still very much. I would guess no german citizen ever enters this channel. It's not german style to look after projects like OpenMRS unfortunately.
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<OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11373]: serialization.xstream: Removed duplicate loading of config.xml in ⦠<http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11373> || OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11372]: atd_ccd branch * creating atd_ccd branch <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11372>
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<Echidna> hey i'm german citizen
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<SparFux> oh really? :-)
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<SparFux> That's a coincidence!
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<Echidna> ok, time to go home
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<SparFux> Well, I have problems even running the tomcat6-admin package. I cannot authenticate to the system. The tomcat6-users.xml is adjusted, but the passowrd is not accepted.
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<SparFux> Echidna: Where exactly are you from?
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<Echidna> SparFux: göttingen
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<Echidna> sounds like the problem i had on ubuntu the other day
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<Echidna> so i just copied the war into the webapps dir
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<SparFux> Cool. I am from Essen.
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<SparFux> Echidna: Yes, I read the ubuntu has the same problem.s
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<Echidna> never been there directly, but i pass essen every time i drive to holland
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<SparFux> Echidna: what to do with the jar file then?
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<Echidna> war
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<SparFux> yes,but there is a jar file, too.
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<Echidna> copy it into /var/lib/tomcat6/webapps, i think
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<SparFux> is it neede danyway?
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<Echidna> the jar is just the api library, you need it fi you develop modules
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<Echidna> the war is for deployment
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<SparFux> ok. thx.
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<Echidna> thats why i run my openmrs on windows =P
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<SparFux> to deinstall a prog from tomcat6, just delete is from webapps?
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<Echidna> and the corresponding directory
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<SparFux> ok.
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<Echidna> if you copy the war into webapps, tomcat extracts it
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<SparFux> but windows seems to be the worse solution to me :-)
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<Echidna> into webapps/openmrs
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<Echidna> but it's easier
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<SparFux> hm...
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<pascal`> I've been using ubuntu no problem
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<Echidna> ok gtg bye
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<pascal`> Cya Echidna
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<SparFux> ciao echidna.
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17:58:12
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<SparFux> pascal`: perhaps your ubuntu was older version and it worked.
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<pascal`> SparFux, did you restart tomcat after you updated tomcat6-users.xml?
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<SparFux> Yes.
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<SparFux> well, I copied to webapps, and get errors for openmrs.
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<SparFux> http://pastebin.com/m62b46c47
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18:03:14
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<pascal`> do you have a runtime properties file?
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18:03:46
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<pascal`> have you seen http://openmrs.org/wiki/Step-by-Step_Installation_for_Implementers ?
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<OpenMRSBot> <http://ln-s.net/27Dh> (at openmrs.org)
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<pascal`> http://openmrs.org/wiki/Step-by-Step_Installation_for_Implementershttp://openmrs.org/wiki/Step-by-Step_Installation_for_Implementers
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<OpenMRSBot> <http://ln-s.net/4ec4> (at openmrs.org)
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<pascal`> *http://openmrs.org/wiki/Step-by-Step_Installation_for_Developers
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<OpenMRSBot> <http://ln-s.net/1iOR> (at openmrs.org)
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<SparFux> yes, I checked the web pages.
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<pascal`> SparFux, openmrs can't connect to the database
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<pascal`> "Caused by: java.sql.SQLException: Access denied for user 'openmrs_user'@'localhost' (using password: YES)"
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<SparFux> why does it use openmrs_user and not only openmrs?
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<SparFux> hm...
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<SparFux> I kill hte user and database and deploy again.
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<pascal`> SparFux, what version are you using?
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18:07:25
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<pascal`> SparFux, you done need to do that
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18:07:40
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<pascal`> SparFux, the best thing to do is to just create a runtime properties file
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18:08:11
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<pascal`> SparFux, http://openmrs.org/wiki/Overriding_OpenMRS_Default_Properties
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<OpenMRSBot> <http://ln-s.net/1iOw> (at openmrs.org)
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<pascal`> create a directory: ~/.OpenMRS
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<SparFux> aha.
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18:08:54
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<SparFux> hm... which dir is ~ then?
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<SparFux> tomcat6 home dir?
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<pascal`> /home/<your username>/.OpenMRS
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<pascal`> create a file in that directory called: openmrs-runtime.properties
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<pascal`> dump the stuff under the "Runtime Properties" heading (at the link I pasted) into the file
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<SparFux> of the user running the web browser or tomcat?
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<pascal`> your operating system user
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<pascal`> the one it says when you type "whoami" at the console
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<pascal`> then, in your runtime properties file, put in the correct MySQL username and password
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<SparFux> I am always working as other user.
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<pascal`> I think you can put it in the tomcat webapps folder too
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<SparFux> that would be good.
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<SparFux> then the username and password for mysql.
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<SparFux> and then restart tomcat?
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<pascal`> that should do it
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18:16:44
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<SparFux> seems it does not look for /var/lib/tomcat6/webapps properties.
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18:18:25
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<pascal`> try in /var/lib/tomcat6
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18:18:44
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<pascal`> and just put it in ~/.OpenMRS too
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18:18:53
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<pascal`> just to see if that solves all the problems
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18:18:58
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<SparFux> found .OpenMRS in /usr/share/tomcat6 from my .deb installation :-(
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18:20:07
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<SparFux> Ah, crap! It was the .deb file laying around!
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18:21:58
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<SparFux> on installation I get this: http://pastebin.com/m30796b41
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18:22:33
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<SparFux> But I think it's not critical.
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18:23:02
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<pascal`> no
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<pascal`> you should be able to set everything up now
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<SparFux> I had this error already, that's why I tried to reinstall. And the debian package seems to have wrecked it :-)
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18:24:05
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<SparFux> well, have you ever created input forms and reports?
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18:24:49
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<pascal`> yes I have
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18:25:32
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<SparFux> I think still some stuff from the debian package is lying around. it searches for modules stuff in /usr/share/tomcat6 ...
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<SparFux> That would be the thing I needed. Craeting simple forms and having the data collected printed out.
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18:26:15
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<pascal`> if you're using ubuntu, you shouldn't need packages, you should just be able to do: apt-get install tomcat6
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18:26:31
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<pascal`> SparFux, that is the most common use case
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18:27:14
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<SparFux> sure there are some tutorials about doing that.
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18:28:04
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<pascal`> there's lots of help on the wiki
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18:28:18
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<pascal`> but if you need anything, feel free to ask here or on the mailing lists
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18:28:25
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<SparFux> I am not really sure wether all from the debian package is gone now, but so far it works again.
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18:28:44
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<SparFux> thanks for the help at first.
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<pascal`> np
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18:32:34
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<SparFux> I will read about form creation tomorrow. Perhaps I can even set up some forms already.
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18:35:04
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<pascal`> SparFux, in what environment are you planning to use OpenMRS?
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18:35:25
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<pascal`> SparFux, I recommend taking a look at the HTML Form Entry Module for your forms
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18:35:33
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<Echidna> wut^
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18:37:04
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<SparFux> re echi.
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18:37:25
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<SparFux> pascal`: I wrote some small text together here: http://www.alice-dsl.net/jkl345/HIS.html
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18:37:36
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<SparFux> The environment is a hospital in germany.
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18:38:20
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<pascal`> SparFux, very cool
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18:38:38
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<SparFux> Yes, it could save my life. We are doing everything on paper and that kills me.
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18:38:45
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<pascal`> I suggest introducing yourself to the list (send a mail to implementers@openmrs.org)
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18:38:57
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<pascal`> SparFux, I think OpenMRS will be able to help you
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18:39:23
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<pascal`> SparFux, when you introduce yourself, include the link you just pasted
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18:39:26
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<SparFux> I am not quite sure yet if OpenMRS is the right thing. What I am thinking of is even workflow management.
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18:40:19
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<SparFux> Yes, I will introduce myself, but first I will have to work on that text I wrote.
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18:40:35
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<pascal`> what kind of workflow management do you have in mind SparFux ?
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18:41:40
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<SparFux> That's what I am planning to elaborate on in the text. For example, in todays clinics everything is just ifnormation stored into a database and presented at the right time. The current proprietary and free HIS are a nightmare. Everything is accessible at all times and this means the ordinary user is presented with millions of menus.
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18:42:39
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<pascal`> Yes
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18:43:15
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<Echidna> SparFux: i really doubt a german hospital would use openmrs
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18:43:17
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<Echidna> would be great though
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18:43:24
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<SparFux> In my understanding of workflow management I see only the central database, data entry and presentation. There are users, groups and these contribute to access control. Then there are jobs. If a user has access to it he can do jobs. A physician can have the jobs to document an operation. This does not only mean he has to be able to log into the system, click 20 times to get to the right place and enter the data.
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18:43:28
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<Echidna> i started a german translation earlier this year
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18:43:30
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<Echidna> but never finished it
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18:44:36
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<SparFux> A job means, the user will be presented with important information. On the same screen he will be able to enter the actual documentation, plus he can click to go deep into menus to access all the information, in case some important thing for this case isn't automatically presented.
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18:45:08
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<SparFux> The point is, there is informmation which is needed for specific jobs all the time. And the user should not have to actively acquire it.
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18:45:08
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<pascal`> SparFux, I know what you're describing, but OpenMRS doesn't do exactly that
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18:45:37
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<pascal`> I understand
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<pascal`> Although OpenMRS isn't quite like that, it is extensible (which may or may not be relevant, depending on your resources)
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18:46:24
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<SparFux> The example: the documentation of the operation includes desicion on further treatment of the patient, that means, display allergies (in case medicals are to be given after operation), display hemoglobin last determined (in case high blood loss requires to give transfusion) or whatever.
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18:46:27
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<pascal`> it's largely based on the forms and reports paradigm
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<pascal`> i think XForms currently supports dynamic options like the one's your describing
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18:47:28
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<SparFux> pascal`: yes, that's nice. I don't expect OpenMRS to do what I want. No system will do what I want, I have to many ideas. I am searching for a framework to implement my ideas in, because I dont' have the time and not yet the skill to develop from scratch.
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18:48:06
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<SparFux> pascal`: it's not necessarily dymamic options. Static forms are sufficient.
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18:48:28
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<pascal`> SparFux, I think you'll get a lot of support from the community if you describe your idea's to them
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18:48:42
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<SparFux> I will do that.
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18:48:44
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<Keelhaul> yea
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18:48:46
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<pascal`> OpenMRS is used in many different settings, and I know for a fact that many people have the same needs
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18:48:55
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<Keelhaul> i'm more concerned about support from the hospital officials =/
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18:49:06
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<SparFux> Keelhaul: I will deal with that.
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18:49:16
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<pascal`> and some people have even implemented cool workflow management systems, like the point of care system in malawi
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18:49:43
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<pascal`> (it's a touch screen system that dynamically goes thru different menu screens depending on input)
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18:50:48
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<SparFux> Keelhaul: read http://www.alice-dsl.net/jkl345/HIS.html and about the operating-room management. Unfortunately OpenMRS will not be able to handle this, and it's not its task. OpenMRS handles medical data, not room management. I read about OpenMRS already when I saw that it was mentioned on ADempiere page to be included to turn ADempiere into a HIS. Well, that's the idea. OpenMRS could handle the medical part when ADempiere does the enterprise m
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18:51:11
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<Keelhaul> hmm
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18:51:24
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<Keelhaul> SparFux: for my masters thesis, i made an inpatient care module
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18:51:33
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<Keelhaul> which splits locations into departments and rooms
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18:51:39
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<pascal`> SparFux, there are people working on scheduling modules
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18:51:46
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<Keelhaul> but it doesnt have that visualization part like you want
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18:52:32
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<SparFux> But anyway, let me show the staff the thing when I have done the web forms for admission, examination of patients, entering diagnosis and whatever at the certain places in our hospitals, let me show them they can print their letter immediately given to the patients from that database and just need to add some advice for the patients at the end of treatment, I bed they will use this system.
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18:52:36
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<pascal`> but with some development time, anything can be built
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18:54:09
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<SparFux> Well, I don't have so much time. Room management is too big for me to implement in short time, but let me explain my first time goal.
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18:55:06
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<Keelhaul> SparFux: define "management"
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18:55:15
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<SparFux> I want to setup a web server at home, which I can just use from my clinic over SSL internet, and use it to gather all data of the patients I see, as opposed to write everything on a paper. For 7 years I am writing on papers and typing into non-accessible proprietary shit computers and this means: I don't have access to the data.
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18:55:30
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<SparFux> This means, no statistics, no science, the data is dead.
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18:55:36
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<Keelhaul> what you could do right now is book an encounter in a room at any time in the future
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18:55:43
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<Keelhaul> which could be called "scheduling"
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18:55:45
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<pascal`> I think anything is better than a paper system, even just starting to capture observation in openmrs should help - because at least you'll have the info electronically, then you can move it to another system if you want
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18:56:02
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<SparFux> pascal`: EXACTLY!
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18:56:14
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<pascal`> SparFux, I think OpenMRS is a good choice
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18:56:15
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<Keelhaul> well german healthcare is rather complicated
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18:56:22
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<pascal`> and I say that with no bias at all ;P
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18:56:23
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<pascal`> brb
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18:56:29
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<SparFux> I can do statistics with it. A physician is no typist or paper writer, he should do science to get to know new things.
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18:56:35
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<Keelhaul> hospitals need to code all their procedures in DRGs to get paid by insurances, etc
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18:57:43
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<SparFux> Keelhaul: but look, we write on papers. THEN we type into a broken system to get those number codes. I can type into OpenMRS, print out (i.e. have paper, haha) and show others that I can access everything from everywhere and do statistics.
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18:58:26
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<SparFux> Plus, if I type in diagnosis in OpenMRS as opposed to write on 10 different sheets of paper, then I will be able to even print it in a letter at the end of patient treatment and don't have to write it on that letter by hand, too.
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18:58:30
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<Keelhaul> what does your hospital use?
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18:58:39
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<Keelhaul> usually there's some big SAP HIS
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18:58:47
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<SparFux> GWI Orbis. Broken version, managed by morons. HL7 ready.
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18:59:28
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<Keelhaul> heh
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18:59:32
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<SparFux> furthermore, can there be forms which appear in a waiting queue list at another users screen in OpenMRS?
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18:59:37
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<Keelhaul> keep in mind that this channel gets logged and you can google it =P
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18:59:51
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<SparFux> I am just talking about facts.
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19:00:55
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<SparFux> This system is borken. The X-ray viewer crashes frequently. We have to search patient's x-ray-pictures in different folders depending on where they were made, no searching for all pictures of mr. miller. then we have to copy the pictures over and even just opening some folders takes 10 minutes, no lie!
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19:01:51
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<Keelhaul> SparFux: http://openmrs.org/wiki/Inpatient_Care_Module (shameless self-promotion)
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19:01:57
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<SparFux> but I digress, what about the form waiting queue? We have a department of physiotherapy. They need to get forms what therapy to do where. Can I have OpenMRS to offer forms which appear in their waiting list once filled in?
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19:02:05
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<Keelhaul> thats about as close as openmrs gets to room management at this moment, i think
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19:03:19
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<pascal`> SparFux, there might be a module to do what you're describing, I'm not sure though
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19:03:26
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<SparFux> I better like the idea to have a sytem like ADempiere do the room management anyway.
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19:03:34
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<pascal`> If not, it can be developed
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19:04:22
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<pascal`> The list is the best place to ask questions, it has the widest audience, and many people develop custom things which we don't all know about, but if you ask on the list, you might get an answer (=
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19:04:51
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<SparFux> How can I subscribe? the page seems to be down?.
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19:05:10
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<Keelhaul> http://openmrs.org/wiki/Community
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19:05:23
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<Keelhaul> Mailing Lists
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19:05:29
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<Keelhaul> subscribe to Dev
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19:05:36
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<Keelhaul> maybe implementers too
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19:06:07
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<SparFux> I am afraid the page does not explain how to subscribe.
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19:06:35
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<pascal`> It should explain at the bottom
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19:06:50
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<SparFux> One more thing to say, EVERYBODY at my clinic says, the computer systems are crap. It's not only me. I am just the one who suffers from that the most.
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19:07:03
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<Keelhaul> click on "subscribe"
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19:07:08
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<Keelhaul> entre your name and email address
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19:07:56
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<pascal`> It does explain at the bottom
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19:09:39
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<SparFux> yeah, at the bottom it's explained, thx.
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19:09:47
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*** ChanServ sets mode: +o jmiranda
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19:15:12
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<SparFux> Ok, but I am glad at least pascal` agrees it's better to enter everything into an electronical system :-)
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19:15:42
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<Keelhaul> speaking of which
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19:16:03
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<SparFux> the situation at my hospital.
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19:16:03
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<Echidna> Researchers at Harvard Medical School pored over survey data from more than 4,000 'wired' hospitals and determined that computerization of those facilities not only didn't save them a dime, but the technology didn't improve administrative efficiency either.
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19:16:46
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<SparFux> echidna: and it doesn't. The available systems are crap.
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19:16:52
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<Keelhaul> lol
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19:16:57
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<Keelhaul> echidna is me
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19:16:59
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<Keelhaul> my server
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19:17:24
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<SparFux> The hospital I worked before had everything computerized, but it was like writing on papers. You had to write diagnosis 5 times, planned therapy three times, whatever.
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19:17:43
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<Keelhaul> well install openmrs and check it out
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19:17:56
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<Keelhaul> lots of functionality has to be added via modules
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19:17:59
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<Keelhaul> such as reporting
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19:18:26
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<SparFux> yes.
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19:21:47
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<Keelhaul> so when you book a room
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19:21:56
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<Keelhaul> what data do you enter
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19:22:04
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<Keelhaul> room name, doctors name and patient name?
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19:22:05
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<Keelhaul> etc
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19:22:37
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<Keelhaul> or rather, is the patient to be treated always known when you book a room
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19:22:39
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<SparFux> Well, in case of operating-room, it's patient's data and who will operate, how long it takes ( to be able to plan things ).
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19:23:01
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<Keelhaul> because that can be expressed as encounters
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19:23:11
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<Keelhaul> all that's missing is a calendar view
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19:23:14
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<Keelhaul> but that could be added
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19:24:21
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<SparFux> Keelhaul: ideally you would have a system with all patients stored and all physicians available (i.e. not on holiday) stored. Then you'd have the physicians mark patients who will have to be operated with information how urgent that is. That should give some other physician or the same physician later on the day to pull the patients on a scheduling plan for a specific day and then pull some physician available in there, too, to do the operation
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19:25:22
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<Keelhaul> hmm
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19:25:23
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<SparFux> In HIS.html I described that room management as a simple calnedar management in an ERP but with configurable arbitrary multiple peaces of data dislpayed in the calendar view, yes.
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19:25:51
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<Keelhaul> encounters only define one physician
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19:25:58
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<Keelhaul> and one patient
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19:26:25
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<SparFux> Yes, that's not it, of course.
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19:27:29
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<Keelhaul> well, you can select from all patients and all physicians
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19:27:35
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<Keelhaul> but being on holiday is not supported
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19:27:46
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<Keelhaul> and an encounter can only have one physician and one patient selected
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19:28:03
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<Keelhaul> if you need a second patient, you have to add a second encounter
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19:30:35
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<SparFux> I will set up forms entry tomorrow. Have to go for now. Thx for the help so far. :-)
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19:30:48
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<Keelhaul> np
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19:30:49
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<Keelhaul> cya
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19:31:09
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<Keelhaul> form entry needs infopath to be installed on every client computer
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19:31:15
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<Keelhaul> html form entry, however, is completely web based
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19:31:28
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<SparFux> yes, I mean htmlformentry module :-)
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<SparFux> bye
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19:37:22
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<jmiranda> Keelhaul, i read that article last week
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19:37:40
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<Keelhaul> jmiranda: how ambigous is that claim?
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19:37:47
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<jmiranda> i know
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19:38:08
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<Keelhaul> that was a question =P
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19:38:11
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<jmiranda> one of the biggest things not factored into the equation is what type of workflows the hospital/clinic has in place
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19:38:36
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<jmiranda> you can't just drop a computer into a clinic and expect efficiency to be improved
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19:39:03
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<jmiranda> doctors i've spoken to UW hospital hate using epic because it slows them down
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19:39:25
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<Keelhaul> whats epic
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19:39:27
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<jmiranda> because it requires them to do things they wouldn't ordinarily need to deal with
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19:39:39
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<jmiranda> EPIC is one of the big EMRs in the states
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19:39:43
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<Keelhaul> o
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19:39:46
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<Keelhaul> more like epic fail then
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19:39:48
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<jmiranda> based in Madison, WI (where i live)
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19:39:50
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<Keelhaul> amirite ;]
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19:39:53
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<jmiranda> exactly
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19:40:18
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<jmiranda> and they frustrate the heck out of doctors because they have their "implementers" come around the hospital to do evaluations on the system
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19:40:26
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<jmiranda> they talk to doctors, get feedback
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19:40:32
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<jmiranda> and then never implement the suggestions
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19:40:39
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<Keelhaul> =/
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19:40:46
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<jmiranda> it takes them years to make an improvement
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19:41:03
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<jmiranda> but, do a study like that at the VA (veterans administration) hospitals
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19:41:07
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<Keelhaul> wait
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19:41:18
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<Keelhaul> ith ought you libr in rhode island
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19:41:21
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<Keelhaul> live*
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19:41:35
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<jmiranda> which happens to be a single payer institution (government run) and the doctors love that system
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19:41:43
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<jmiranda> grew up there
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19:41:48
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<Keelhaul> o
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19:41:56
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<jmiranda> lived in nyc/boston for my early adult life
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19:42:01
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<jmiranda> and moved to madison a few years ago
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19:42:22
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<Keelhaul> o
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19:43:22
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<jmiranda> anyway, i like the fact that people are doing studies on EMR efficiency, but i'd like to see them study the human side of the system as well
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19:51:22
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<OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11374]: ncd:Fixing some issues found during DG1 segment testing. <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11374>
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20:23:24
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<OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11378]: ncd: Fixes for ResultStorageHelper and DG1 segments. <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11378> || OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11377]: ncd: Fixing a null pointer exception in ⦠<http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11377> || OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11376]: ncd:More fixes from DG1 segment testing. <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11376> || OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11375]: serialization.xstream: moving all file from root into trunk (using ⦠<http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11375> || Justin Miranda: OpenMRS Developers Conference (Oct 2009) <http://blog.justinmiranda.com/2009/10/openmrs-conference-developers.html>
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20:35:50
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20:37:32
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<Mkop1> jmiranda: I actually considered applying for a job at epic at one point
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20:37:53
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<Mkop1> I'd love to work for an EMR company, but I have no interest in living in Madison
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20:37:55
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<jmiranda> Mkop1, it's a pretty good company
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20:37:59
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<Mkop1> hmmm, question:
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20:38:06
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<Mkop1> do you know if PIH is looking for people?
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20:38:09
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<jmiranda> they seem to treat their employees well
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20:38:20
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<Mkop1> I wouldn't mind living in boston
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20:38:40
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<jmiranda> they're just too big and can't move quickly enough to make people happy
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20:39:11
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<jmiranda> Mkop1, http://www.pih.org/youcando/employment.html
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20:42:20
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<Mkop1> jmiranda: do you know anything about this Junior Software Engineer, Division of Global Health Equity?
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20:42:29
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<Mkop1> (other than what I can see for myself on that site)
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20:42:38
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<jmiranda> not really
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20:42:45
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<jmiranda> ghd is pretty sweet though
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20:44:00
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<jmiranda> ghdonline is a community/collaboration website for medical professionals around the world
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20:44:03
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<Keelhaul> heh
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20:44:11
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<Keelhaul> they're actually looking for a full time openmrs dev?
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20:44:14
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<jmiranda> helping to improve best practices and knowledge transfer
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20:44:41
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<jmiranda> well i'll be ...
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20:45:25
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<Mkop1> ?
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20:46:25
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<jmiranda> it's an expression
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20:46:29
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<jmiranda> "well, i'll be damned"
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20:46:42
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<Mkop1> oh
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20:46:50
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<jmiranda> GHD is a pretty cool group
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20:47:00
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<Keelhaul> where are they based
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20:47:03
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<Mkop1> I was hoping it wasn't gonna be something like "...leaving in 6 months so they're looking to replace me"
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20:47:07
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<Mkop1> lol
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20:47:16
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<jmiranda> they've had some really good project managers over the last couple of years
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20:47:35
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<jmiranda> so its a good fit for someone young, learning the ropes of software development best practices
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20:48:00
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<jmiranda> not a chance :)
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20:48:03
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<Mkop1> I never know how strict they are with the qualifications listed
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20:48:03
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<Keelhaul> lol
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20:48:18
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<Keelhaul> who
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20:48:19
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<Mkop1> "
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20:48:19
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<Mkop1> ¿ Bachelor¿s Degree in Computer Science (or a related field) and 2 years work experience required "
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20:48:27
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<Mkop1> companies in general
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20:48:39
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<Keelhaul> yea, the work experience part gave me a hard time for 4-5 months
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20:48:51
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<Mkop1> I will have a bachelors in bioengineering (not CS, but probably close enough) but I definitely don't have 2 years work experience
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20:49:07
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<Keelhaul> well
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20:49:25
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<Keelhaul> you might be able to count the experience you made as a student
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20:49:44
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<jmiranda> yeah, don't discount your time working with openmrs
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20:50:01
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<Mkop1> even counting that, I don't really have two years
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20:50:33
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<jmiranda> having the word "openmrs" on your resume might be just the thing to get you a phone interview
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20:50:38
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<Mkop1> I've had one summer programming (in Matlab though)
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20:50:49
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<Mkop1> one summer of kinda-programming but more research-like
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20:50:56
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<Mkop1> two semesters of part-time programming
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20:51:16
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<Mkop1> and six months of reading openmrs listserv/forums
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20:51:28
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<Keelhaul> heh
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20:51:40
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<Keelhaul> reading openmrs mailing lists is almost a full time job =D
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20:51:54
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<Mkop1> to be honest, I've learned a LOT in those six months, but it's not actual work experience
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20:52:09
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<Keelhaul> when are you graduating
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20:52:25
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<Mkop1> May
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20:52:36
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<Keelhaul> do you have to do a final project in a related field or smt?
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20:53:30
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<Mkop1> I have a senior design project, but the code portion isn't huge
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20:53:36
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<OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: Justin Miranda: Fixing an existing subversion project to migrate to the trunk/branches/tags convention <http://blog.justinmiranda.com/2009/12/fixing-existing-subversion-project-to.html>
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20:53:45
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<Mkop1> so far I have 80 lines of C++ code
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20:54:28
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<Mkop1> depending which Microscope software we use I might need to write a driver for the DAQ card
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20:54:43
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<jmiranda> Mkop1, yeah it's tough to interview for a job that requires 2 years of experience
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20:54:43
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<Mkop1> driver = an adapter for the software, using the device manufacturer's SDK
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20:55:05
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<jmiranda> but it's not impossible if you have enough experience in the skills they're looking for
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20:55:07
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<Mkop1> the problem is, all of them want 2 years of experience!
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20:55:51
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<Mkop1> yeah
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20:55:56
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<Keelhaul> jmiranda: you finally found someone for that pharmacy stock system?
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20:56:01
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<jmiranda> companies are looking to cut costs at the moment, so if you can deal with less money and you're at a similar skill level as the two year candidates
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20:56:07
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<jmiranda> then you've got a chance
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20:56:15
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<jmiranda> Keelhaul, :)
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20:56:17
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<jmiranda> yeah
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20:56:21
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<jmiranda> me
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20:56:22
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<Mkop1> I don't think I have enough experience in J2EE, but I probably do in the stuff the GHD people list
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20:56:24
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<Keelhaul> lol
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20:56:31
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<Keelhaul> jmiranda: so you didnt find anyone?
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20:57:08
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<Keelhaul> "J2EE" is quite ambigous
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20:57:31
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<Keelhaul> in the openmrs context, it probably means the technology openmrs uses
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20:57:36
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<jmiranda> Keelhaul, i'm not exactly sure what's going on
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20:57:37
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<Keelhaul> but others will expect EJB and what not
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20:58:51
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<Mkop1> you know what? I've procrastinated enough. I'm gonna send out a (few) resume/cover letter(s) right now
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20:59:06
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<jmiranda> but it's my project unless we find another developer to work on it
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20:59:16
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<jmiranda> Mkop1, there we go
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20:59:20
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<jmiranda> that's the spirit
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20:59:46
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<jmiranda> Keelhaul, were you thinking about working on it?
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20:59:47
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<Keelhaul> "Are you willing to work on Saturdays?" =P
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21:00:01
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<Keelhaul> jmiranda: i applied for that back in march
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21:00:03
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<Mkop1> well, I'm not gonna email PIH right now, because I need to have a different resume and totally different cover letter for something like that
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21:00:16
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<Keelhaul> but it didnt quite work out
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21:00:31
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<Mkop1> what I have currently is more focused on medical devices and bioengineering than software development
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21:00:40
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<jmiranda> Keelhaul, your side or ours?
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21:00:45
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<jmiranda> it's a pretty interesting project
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21:01:12
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<jmiranda> i am unfortunately in the process of over-engineering it
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21:01:13
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<Keelhaul> jmiranda: work visa issues on your side, followed by time issues on my side because i took another job
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21:01:46
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<jmiranda> were you planning to move to the states?
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21:01:59
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<Keelhaul> well i woudlnt have said no =P
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21:02:07
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<Keelhaul> thing was, the work permit issue was unclear
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21:02:22
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<Keelhaul> i was supposed to work on rwanda reports from home in the meantime
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21:02:38
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<Keelhaul> but then i had a shot with a local company and juggling both didnt quite work out
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21:02:48
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<jmiranda> yeah, too bad
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21:03:37
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<Keelhaul> funny thing is
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21:03:47
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<Keelhaul> i remember reading eclipse rcp on that job description
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21:03:55
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<Keelhaul> which i work with now most of the time lol
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21:05:09
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<jmiranda> Keelhaul, really?
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21:05:12
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<jmiranda> what do you think?
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21:05:34
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<Keelhaul> i like it
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21:05:39
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<jmiranda> i've actually been meaning to write a blog entry about which technologies to adopt for this project
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21:05:44
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<Keelhaul> nice framework for standalone apps
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21:05:59
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<jmiranda> what if i was to embed jetty and a database inside RCP?
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21:06:03
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<Keelhaul> some widgets arent quite portable between platforms
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21:06:04
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<jmiranda> what would you say :)
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21:06:05
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<Keelhaul> windows is native
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21:06:11
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<Keelhaul> but mac and linux messes up sometimes
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21:06:24
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<jmiranda> yeah, BIRT RCP only works on Windows
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21:06:28
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<jmiranda> i always wondered why
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21:06:41
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<Keelhaul> it uses GTK on lunix
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21:06:46
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<Keelhaul> cocoa on mac
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21:09:38
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<Keelhaul> jmiranda: whats jetty for?
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21:09:50
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<Keelhaul> communication?
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21:10:09
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<jmiranda> yeah
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21:10:36
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<jmiranda> each location will have a standalone app to deal with their own stock
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21:11:28
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<jmiranda> but we need to send out broadcasts or allow other sites to pull current stock numbers, orders received, orders sent
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21:11:47
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<jmiranda> i actually want to build the entire app as a web app, embedded in rcp
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21:12:05
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<jmiranda> sounds stupid, but we need the rcp part to help with ease of install and updates
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21:12:16
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<jmiranda> (and ease of use)
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21:12:30
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* Mkop1 just sent out my first resume/cover letter email!
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21:12:56
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<Keelhaul> jmiranda: sounds ok
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21:13:02
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<Keelhaul> Mkop1: are oyu two persons =o
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21:13:04
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<jmiranda> yeah, it's just bothering me
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21:13:23
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<Mkop1> yeah, I don't know why that Mkop1 guy is sending out _my_ resume...
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21:13:33
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<jmiranda> so much infrastructure to do a few simple use cases
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21:14:25
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<jmiranda> but i'm looking at it from the perspective that we need to a good offline client
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21:14:31
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<jmiranda> framework
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21:14:47
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<jmiranda> and this might be a good opportunity to test it out
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21:15:27
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<jmiranda> anyway, i keep going back-and-forth on the different options
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21:15:32
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<Keelhaul> and by offline you mean just contained on the current computer?
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21:15:35
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<Keelhaul> or within a LAN
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21:15:38
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<Keelhaul> or an area
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21:15:42
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<Keelhaul> i forgot
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21:16:03
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<jmiranda> it needs to be on the LAN because you want to have multiple clients
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21:16:14
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<jmiranda> which makes it even more difficult
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21:16:14
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<Keelhaul> yea
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21:16:24
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<Keelhaul> on the other hand, a browser will work on a lan as well =P
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21:16:37
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<jmiranda> but offline in the sense that we don't need to be connected to a server somewhere else
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21:16:42
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<jmiranda> right, that's the thought
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21:17:02
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<jmiranda> which is why i'm thinking about building it as an embedded webapp
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21:17:07
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<Keelhaul> question is whether you need an interface which is more capable than a web client
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21:17:18
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<Keelhaul> although a lot is possible with jquery and what not nowadays
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21:17:19
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<jmiranda> the problem with a webapp (like openmrs) is maintenance
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21:17:50
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<jmiranda> and we don't have anyone who's going to be able to maintain this new app in 7 more sites in rwanda
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21:17:59
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<Keelhaul> well
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21:18:06
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<Keelhaul> the rcp client will have to be maintained on every computer
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21:18:15
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<jmiranda> i guess stability and low maintenance overhead is my main concern
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21:19:07
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<jmiranda> yes, but i'm hoping that by adopting a stable platform that has the update/install taken care of
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21:19:12
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<jmiranda> then it won't be as big of a headache
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21:19:34
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<Keelhaul> hm
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21:19:37
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<Keelhaul> you mean using eclipse'
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21:19:42
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<Keelhaul> s update plugin
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21:19:46
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<Keelhaul> or feature
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21:19:46
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<jmiranda> but i'm anticipating that this is going to be more difficult than we think
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21:20:14
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<jmiranda> yeah, the built-in update feature
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21:20:24
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<jmiranda> we don't want to have to go to the site and do the update ourselves
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21:21:31
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<jmiranda> so having the app configured to upgrade on a schedule or on demand will allow someone with less technical knowledge to upgrade when necessary
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21:21:48
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<jmiranda> but i haven't always had great success with the updates in eclipse
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21:22:02
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<jmiranda> and i'm concerned about issues with the data model changing between updates
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21:22:58
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<jmiranda> essentially, when i look at this application months down the road, i see the openmrs architecture inside a desktop client
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21:23:06
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<Mkop1> why do all the companies I want to work for have to be located out in the boondocks?
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21:23:22
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<Mkop1> this one company is based in McFarland, WI
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21:23:28
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<Mkop1> probably not too far from you, justin
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21:23:29
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<jmiranda> whoa
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21:23:56
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<Mkop1> old McFarland had a farm, EIEIO
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21:24:45
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<jmiranda> yeah, just out off the beltline
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21:30:55
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<Keelhaul> jmiranda: where would you keep the db?
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21:31:08
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<Keelhaul> it'd be on a lan somewhere outside the clients, right?
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21:31:10
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<jmiranda> on the client
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21:31:14
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<Keelhaul> o
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21:31:16
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<jmiranda> embedded at the moment
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21:31:21
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<Keelhaul> ah ok
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21:31:23
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<jmiranda> (is the thought)
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21:31:25
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<Keelhaul> what kind of db thne
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21:31:38
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<jmiranda> probably something embeddable like derby
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21:31:55
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<jmiranda> but there are lots of risks there too
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21:32:35
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<jmiranda> embedded database sometimes don't allow access via external clients
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21:32:58
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<Keelhaul> hmm
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21:33:08
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<jmiranda> for instance, i've read that mysql embedded database aren't accessible outside the client app
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21:33:09
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<Keelhaul> what about H2
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21:33:40
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<jmiranda> never heard of it
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21:33:52
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* jmiranda is looking at the H2 site now
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21:34:06
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<Keelhaul> supposedly the successor to hsqldb or something
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21:34:34
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<Keelhaul> it even has its own query language, but it's still very young and kinda crappy
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21:38:26
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<jmiranda> i'll give it a look anyway
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21:39:08
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<Keelhaul> i tried using it for a project
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21:39:16
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<Keelhaul> the query language that is
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21:39:25
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<Keelhaul> ended up using H2 with ebean for ORM
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21:45:24
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21:50:13
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<jmiranda> Keelhaul, why ebean?
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21:51:31
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<Keelhaul> jmiranda: was looking for something that supports JPA but is lean
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21:51:45
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<jmiranda> do you like it?
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21:52:16
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<Keelhaul> it took a while to get it to work because apparently they refactored a lot between versions but failed to update their docs
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21:52:22
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<Keelhaul> but now it works
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21:52:35
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<Keelhaul> i wouldnt use it for larger projects like openmrs
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21:52:40
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<Keelhaul> but for small databases, it's nice
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21:53:13
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<Mkop1> where is this system for? clinics in Malawi?
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21:55:47
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<jmiranda> Mkop1, rwanda pharmacies
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21:56:13
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<jmiranda> but will probably be used elsewhere too
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22:59:41
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<OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11379]: Creating personrefactoring branch to refactor users so they no longer ⦠<http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11379>
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23:02:32
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<Keelhaul> hah finally
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23:07:12
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