IRC Chat : 2009-12-03 - OpenMRS

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01:53:53 <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Tickets: Ticket #1952 (enhancement created): Add more @shoulds and junit test cases <http://dev.openmrs.org/ticket/1952> || OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11367]: LDAP: french properties <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11367>
02:57:57 <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11368]: ldap: Temporary mod including my crude work. <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11368>
03:29:59 <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11369]: ldap: Temporary mod including my crude work. <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11369>
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05:06:02 <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Forum: Re: API Exception on stand alone app <http://forum.openmrs.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=535#p1965>
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06:42:08 <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Tickets: Ticket #1953 (task created): Velocity errors in HTML form entry <http://dev.openmrs.org/ticket/1953>
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08:18:14 <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11370]: ldap: Update on the Interfaces <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11370>
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10:17:49 <Echidna> ,
10:20:12 <pascal`> `
10:26:24 <Echidna> i was cleaning my kb
10:38:40 <pascal`> heh
10:58:19 <Echidna> spilled coffe over the desk =/
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12:32:32 <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Tickets: Ticket #1954 (task created): De-duplication of concept IDs and updating corresponding obs <http://dev.openmrs.org/ticket/1954>
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13:36:35 <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Forum: seperation between the links <http://forum.openmrs.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=536#p1966>
14:20:34 <pascal`> hey upul
14:20:34 <pascal`> !seen upul
14:20:34 <OpenMRSBot> pascal`: upul was last seen in #openmrs 1 week, 6 days, 2 hours, 19 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <upul> have a nice weekend :-)
14:21:33 <upul> did you have a nice weekend :-)
14:27:16 <pascal`> heh
14:27:16 <pascal`> i think so upul, how was your trip?
14:28:39 <pascal`> bbiab
14:33:45 <upul> it was okay
14:36:13 <upul> i like singapore they have good people running the country
14:37:27 <upul> there must have 10000 clothes stalls in bangkok around where we stayed
14:40:42 <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Forum: Re: seperation between the links <http://forum.openmrs.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=536#p1967>
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16:46:52 <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11371]: chica_ccd * changed some jsp code because it was not supported by a newer … <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11371>
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17:39:03 <SparFux> Hi all.
17:39:53 <pascal`> hi SparFux
17:42:37 <Echidna> hi
17:42:54 <SparFux> Hey, crowded channel :-)
17:43:44 <Echidna> most action takes place on the mailing lists
17:44:54 <SparFux> Yes, mailing lists. I have bad experience with them. few answers to my questions. But I don't know the openmrs mailing list.
17:45:42 <pascal`> SparFux, http://openmrs.org/wiki/Community
17:46:56 <Echidna> you're like the third person from germany to ever come to this channel, i think
17:48:02 <pascal`> What about that wierdo KeelHaul
17:48:05 <pascal`> ;-P
17:48:09 <Echidna> no u
17:48:16 <SparFux> Well, ... how do you know I am from germany?
17:48:26 <Echidna> SparFux: your hostmask
17:48:31 <SparFux> ok.
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17:49:01 <SparFux> Anyway, I think 3 is still very much. I would guess no german citizen ever enters this channel. It's not german style to look after projects like OpenMRS unfortunately.
17:49:07 <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11373]: serialization.xstream: Removed duplicate loading of config.xml in … <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11373> || OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11372]: atd_ccd branch * creating atd_ccd branch <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11372>
17:49:28 <Echidna> hey i'm german citizen
17:49:59 <SparFux> oh really? :-)
17:50:13 <SparFux> That's a coincidence!
17:52:15 <Echidna> ok, time to go home
17:52:16 <SparFux> Well, I have problems even running the tomcat6-admin package. I cannot authenticate to the system. The tomcat6-users.xml is adjusted, but the passowrd is not accepted.
17:52:38 <SparFux> Echidna: Where exactly are you from?
17:52:42 <Echidna> SparFux: göttingen
17:52:59 <Echidna> sounds like the problem i had on ubuntu the other day
17:53:11 <Echidna> so i just copied the war into the webapps dir
17:53:33 <SparFux> Cool. I am from Essen.
17:53:59 <SparFux> Echidna: Yes, I read the ubuntu has the same problem.s
17:54:10 <Echidna> never been there directly, but i pass essen every time i drive to holland
17:54:18 <SparFux> Echidna: what to do with the jar file then?
17:54:24 <Echidna> war
17:54:37 <SparFux> yes,but there is a jar file, too.
17:54:38 <Echidna> copy it into /var/lib/tomcat6/webapps, i think
17:54:41 <SparFux> is it neede danyway?
17:54:52 <Echidna> the jar is just the api library, you need it fi you develop modules
17:54:57 <Echidna> the war is for deployment
17:55:10 <SparFux> ok. thx.
17:55:33 <Echidna> thats why i run my openmrs on windows =P
17:55:59 <SparFux> to deinstall a prog from tomcat6, just delete is from webapps?
17:56:14 <Echidna> and the corresponding directory
17:56:20 <SparFux> ok.
17:56:23 <Echidna> if you copy the war into webapps, tomcat extracts it
17:56:31 <SparFux> but windows seems to be the worse solution to me :-)
17:56:31 <Echidna> into webapps/openmrs
17:56:38 <Echidna> but it's easier
17:56:45 <SparFux> hm...
17:57:22 <pascal`> I've been using ubuntu no problem
17:57:23 <Echidna> ok gtg bye
17:57:28 <pascal`> Cya Echidna
17:57:58 <SparFux> ciao echidna.
17:58:12 <SparFux> pascal`: perhaps your ubuntu was older version and it worked.
18:01:15 <pascal`> SparFux, did you restart tomcat after you updated tomcat6-users.xml?
18:01:30 <SparFux> Yes.
18:01:45 <SparFux> well, I copied to webapps, and get errors for openmrs.
18:02:08 <SparFux> http://pastebin.com/m62b46c47
18:03:14 <pascal`> do you have a runtime properties file?
18:03:46 <pascal`> have you seen http://openmrs.org/wiki/Step-by-Step_Installation_for_Implementers ?
18:03:47 <OpenMRSBot> <http://ln-s.net/27Dh> (at openmrs.org)
18:03:54 <pascal`> http://openmrs.org/wiki/Step-by-Step_Installation_for_Implementershttp://openmrs.org/wiki/Step-by-Step_Installation_for_Implementers
18:03:58 <OpenMRSBot> <http://ln-s.net/4ec4> (at openmrs.org)
18:04:05 <pascal`> *http://openmrs.org/wiki/Step-by-Step_Installation_for_Developers
18:04:06 <OpenMRSBot> <http://ln-s.net/1iOR> (at openmrs.org)
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18:05:12 <SparFux> yes, I checked the web pages.
18:05:21 <pascal`> SparFux, openmrs can't connect to the database
18:05:34 <pascal`> "Caused by: java.sql.SQLException: Access denied for user 'openmrs_user'@'localhost' (using password: YES)"
18:06:49 <SparFux> why does it use openmrs_user and not only openmrs?
18:06:51 <SparFux> hm...
18:07:04 <SparFux> I kill hte user and database and deploy again.
18:07:15 <pascal`> SparFux, what version are you using?
18:07:25 <pascal`> SparFux, you done need to do that
18:07:40 <pascal`> SparFux, the best thing to do is to just create a runtime properties file
18:08:11 <pascal`> SparFux, http://openmrs.org/wiki/Overriding_OpenMRS_Default_Properties
18:08:12 <OpenMRSBot> <http://ln-s.net/1iOw> (at openmrs.org)
18:08:21 <pascal`> create a directory: ~/.OpenMRS
18:08:22 <SparFux> aha.
18:08:54 <SparFux> hm... which dir is ~ then?
18:09:00 <SparFux> tomcat6 home dir?
18:09:16 <pascal`> /home/<your username>/.OpenMRS
18:09:34 <pascal`> create a file in that directory called: openmrs-runtime.properties
18:10:17 <pascal`> dump the stuff under the "Runtime Properties" heading (at the link I pasted) into the file
18:10:19 <SparFux> of the user running the web browser or tomcat?
18:11:06 <pascal`> your operating system user
18:11:36 <pascal`> the one it says when you type "whoami" at the console
18:12:03 <pascal`> then, in your runtime properties file, put in the correct MySQL username and password
18:12:05 <SparFux> I am always working as other user.
18:13:16 <pascal`> I think you can put it in the tomcat webapps folder too
18:14:38 <SparFux> that would be good.
18:15:12 <SparFux> then the username and password for mysql.
18:15:31 <SparFux> and then restart tomcat?
18:16:04 <pascal`> that should do it
18:16:44 <SparFux> seems it does not look for /var/lib/tomcat6/webapps properties.
18:18:25 <pascal`> try in /var/lib/tomcat6
18:18:44 <pascal`> and just put it in ~/.OpenMRS too
18:18:53 <pascal`> just to see if that solves all the problems
18:18:58 <SparFux> found .OpenMRS in /usr/share/tomcat6 from my .deb installation :-(
18:20:07 <SparFux> Ah, crap! It was the .deb file laying around!
18:21:58 <SparFux> on installation I get this: http://pastebin.com/m30796b41
18:22:33 <SparFux> But I think it's not critical.
18:23:02 <pascal`> no
18:23:12 <pascal`> you should be able to set everything up now
18:23:49 <SparFux> I had this error already, that's why I tried to reinstall. And the debian package seems to have wrecked it :-)
18:24:05 <SparFux> well, have you ever created input forms and reports?
18:24:49 <pascal`> yes I have
18:25:32 <SparFux> I think still some stuff from the debian package is lying around. it searches for modules stuff in /usr/share/tomcat6 ...
18:25:59 <SparFux> That would be the thing I needed. Craeting simple forms and having the data collected printed out.
18:26:15 <pascal`> if you're using ubuntu, you shouldn't need packages, you should just be able to do: apt-get install tomcat6
18:26:31 <pascal`> SparFux, that is the most common use case
18:27:14 <SparFux> sure there are some tutorials about doing that.
18:28:04 <pascal`> there's lots of help on the wiki
18:28:18 <pascal`> but if you need anything, feel free to ask here or on the mailing lists
18:28:25 <SparFux> I am not really sure wether all from the debian package is gone now, but so far it works again.
18:28:44 <SparFux> thanks for the help at first.
18:28:53 <pascal`> np
18:32:34 <SparFux> I will read about form creation tomorrow. Perhaps I can even set up some forms already.
18:35:04 <pascal`> SparFux, in what environment are you planning to use OpenMRS?
18:35:25 <pascal`> SparFux, I recommend taking a look at the HTML Form Entry Module for your forms
18:35:33 <Echidna> wut^
18:37:04 <SparFux> re echi.
18:37:25 <SparFux> pascal`: I wrote some small text together here: http://www.alice-dsl.net/jkl345/HIS.html
18:37:36 <SparFux> The environment is a hospital in germany.
18:38:20 <pascal`> SparFux, very cool
18:38:38 <SparFux> Yes, it could save my life. We are doing everything on paper and that kills me.
18:38:45 <pascal`> I suggest introducing yourself to the list (send a mail to implementers@openmrs.org)
18:38:57 <pascal`> SparFux, I think OpenMRS will be able to help you
18:39:23 <pascal`> SparFux, when you introduce yourself, include the link you just pasted
18:39:26 <SparFux> I am not quite sure yet if OpenMRS is the right thing. What I am thinking of is even workflow management.
18:40:19 <SparFux> Yes, I will introduce myself, but first I will have to work on that text I wrote.
18:40:35 <pascal`> what kind of workflow management do you have in mind SparFux ?
18:41:40 <SparFux> That's what I am planning to elaborate on in the text. For example, in todays clinics everything is just ifnormation stored into a database and presented at the right time. The current proprietary and free HIS are a nightmare. Everything is accessible at all times and this means the ordinary user is presented with millions of menus.
18:42:39 <pascal`> Yes
18:43:15 <Echidna> SparFux: i really doubt a german hospital would use openmrs
18:43:17 <Echidna> would be great though
18:43:24 <SparFux> In my understanding of workflow management I see only the central database, data entry and presentation. There are users, groups and these contribute to access control. Then there are jobs. If a user has access to it he can do jobs. A physician can have the jobs to document an operation. This does not only mean he has to be able to log into the system, click 20 times to get to the right place and enter the data.
18:43:28 <Echidna> i started a german translation earlier this year
18:43:30 <Echidna> but never finished it
18:44:36 <SparFux> A job means, the user will be presented with important information. On the same screen he will be able to enter the actual documentation, plus he can click to go deep into menus to access all the information, in case some important thing for this case isn't automatically presented.
18:45:08 <SparFux> The point is, there is informmation which is needed for specific jobs all the time. And the user should not have to actively acquire it.
18:45:08 <pascal`> SparFux, I know what you're describing, but OpenMRS doesn't do exactly that
18:45:37 <pascal`> I understand
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18:46:07 <pascal`> Although OpenMRS isn't quite like that, it is extensible (which may or may not be relevant, depending on your resources)
18:46:24 <SparFux> The example: the documentation of the operation includes desicion on further treatment of the patient, that means, display allergies (in case medicals are to be given after operation), display hemoglobin last determined (in case high blood loss requires to give transfusion) or whatever.
18:46:27 <pascal`> it's largely based on the forms and reports paradigm
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18:47:21 <pascal`> i think XForms currently supports dynamic options like the one's your describing
18:47:28 <SparFux> pascal`: yes, that's nice. I don't expect OpenMRS to do what I want. No system will do what I want, I have to many ideas. I am searching for a framework to implement my ideas in, because I dont' have the time and not yet the skill to develop from scratch.
18:48:06 <SparFux> pascal`: it's not necessarily dymamic options. Static forms are sufficient.
18:48:28 <pascal`> SparFux, I think you'll get a lot of support from the community if you describe your idea's to them
18:48:42 <SparFux> I will do that.
18:48:44 <Keelhaul> yea
18:48:46 <pascal`> OpenMRS is used in many different settings, and I know for a fact that many people have the same needs
18:48:55 <Keelhaul> i'm more concerned about support from the hospital officials =/
18:49:06 <SparFux> Keelhaul: I will deal with that.
18:49:16 <pascal`> and some people have even implemented cool workflow management systems, like the point of care system in malawi
18:49:43 <pascal`> (it's a touch screen system that dynamically goes thru different menu screens depending on input)
18:50:48 <SparFux> Keelhaul: read http://www.alice-dsl.net/jkl345/HIS.html and about the operating-room management. Unfortunately OpenMRS will not be able to handle this, and it's not its task. OpenMRS handles medical data, not room management. I read about OpenMRS already when I saw that it was mentioned on ADempiere page to be included to turn ADempiere into a HIS. Well, that's the idea. OpenMRS could handle the medical part when ADempiere does the enterprise m
18:51:11 <Keelhaul> hmm
18:51:24 <Keelhaul> SparFux: for my masters thesis, i made an inpatient care module
18:51:33 <Keelhaul> which splits locations into departments and rooms
18:51:39 <pascal`> SparFux, there are people working on scheduling modules
18:51:46 <Keelhaul> but it doesnt have that visualization part like you want
18:52:32 <SparFux> But anyway, let me show the staff the thing when I have done the web forms for admission, examination of patients, entering diagnosis and whatever at the certain places in our hospitals, let me show them they can print their letter immediately given to the patients from that database and just need to add some advice for the patients at the end of treatment, I bed they will use this system.
18:52:36 <pascal`> but with some development time, anything can be built
18:54:09 <SparFux> Well, I don't have so much time. Room management is too big for me to implement in short time, but let me explain my first time goal.
18:55:06 <Keelhaul> SparFux: define "management"
18:55:15 <SparFux> I want to setup a web server at home, which I can just use from my clinic over SSL internet, and use it to gather all data of the patients I see, as opposed to write everything on a paper. For 7 years I am writing on papers and typing into non-accessible proprietary shit computers and this means: I don't have access to the data.
18:55:30 <SparFux> This means, no statistics, no science, the data is dead.
18:55:36 <Keelhaul> what you could do right now is book an encounter in a room at any time in the future
18:55:43 <Keelhaul> which could be called "scheduling"
18:55:45 <pascal`> I think anything is better than a paper system, even just starting to capture observation in openmrs should help - because at least you'll have the info electronically, then you can move it to another system if you want
18:56:02 <SparFux> pascal`: EXACTLY!
18:56:14 <pascal`> SparFux, I think OpenMRS is a good choice
18:56:15 <Keelhaul> well german healthcare is rather complicated
18:56:22 <pascal`> and I say that with no bias at all ;P
18:56:23 <pascal`> brb
18:56:29 <SparFux> I can do statistics with it. A physician is no typist or paper writer, he should do science to get to know new things.
18:56:35 <Keelhaul> hospitals need to code all their procedures in DRGs to get paid by insurances, etc
18:57:43 <SparFux> Keelhaul: but look, we write on papers. THEN we type into a broken system to get those number codes. I can type into OpenMRS, print out (i.e. have paper, haha) and show others that I can access everything from everywhere and do statistics.
18:58:26 <SparFux> Plus, if I type in diagnosis in OpenMRS as opposed to write on 10 different sheets of paper, then I will be able to even print it in a letter at the end of patient treatment and don't have to write it on that letter by hand, too.
18:58:30 <Keelhaul> what does your hospital use?
18:58:39 <Keelhaul> usually there's some big SAP HIS
18:58:47 <SparFux> GWI Orbis. Broken version, managed by morons. HL7 ready.
18:59:28 <Keelhaul> heh
18:59:32 <SparFux> furthermore, can there be forms which appear in a waiting queue list at another users screen in OpenMRS?
18:59:37 <Keelhaul> keep in mind that this channel gets logged and you can google it =P
18:59:51 <SparFux> I am just talking about facts.
19:00:55 <SparFux> This system is borken. The X-ray viewer crashes frequently. We have to search patient's x-ray-pictures in different folders depending on where they were made, no searching for all pictures of mr. miller. then we have to copy the pictures over and even just opening some folders takes 10 minutes, no lie!
19:01:51 <Keelhaul> SparFux: http://openmrs.org/wiki/Inpatient_Care_Module (shameless self-promotion)
19:01:57 <SparFux> but I digress, what about the form waiting queue? We have a department of physiotherapy. They need to get forms what therapy to do where. Can I have OpenMRS to offer forms which appear in their waiting list once filled in?
19:02:05 <Keelhaul> thats about as close as openmrs gets to room management at this moment, i think
19:03:19 <pascal`> SparFux, there might be a module to do what you're describing, I'm not sure though
19:03:26 <SparFux> I better like the idea to have a sytem like ADempiere do the room management anyway.
19:03:34 <pascal`> If not, it can be developed
19:04:22 <pascal`> The list is the best place to ask questions, it has the widest audience, and many people develop custom things which we don't all know about, but if you ask on the list, you might get an answer (=
19:04:51 <SparFux> How can I subscribe? the page seems to be down?.
19:05:10 <Keelhaul> http://openmrs.org/wiki/Community
19:05:23 <Keelhaul> Mailing Lists
19:05:29 <Keelhaul> subscribe to Dev
19:05:36 <Keelhaul> maybe implementers too
19:06:07 <SparFux> I am afraid the page does not explain how to subscribe.
19:06:35 <pascal`> It should explain at the bottom
19:06:50 <SparFux> One more thing to say, EVERYBODY at my clinic says, the computer systems are crap. It's not only me. I am just the one who suffers from that the most.
19:07:03 <Keelhaul> click on "subscribe"
19:07:08 <Keelhaul> entre your name and email address
19:07:56 <pascal`> It does explain at the bottom
19:09:39 <SparFux> yeah, at the bottom it's explained, thx.
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19:15:12 <SparFux> Ok, but I am glad at least pascal` agrees it's better to enter everything into an electronical system :-)
19:15:42 <Keelhaul> speaking of which
19:16:03 <SparFux> the situation at my hospital.
19:16:03 <Echidna> Researchers at Harvard Medical School pored over survey data from more than 4,000 'wired' hospitals and determined that computerization of those facilities not only didn't save them a dime, but the technology didn't improve administrative efficiency either.
19:16:46 <SparFux> echidna: and it doesn't. The available systems are crap.
19:16:52 <Keelhaul> lol
19:16:57 <Keelhaul> echidna is me
19:16:59 <Keelhaul> my server
19:17:24 <SparFux> The hospital I worked before had everything computerized, but it was like writing on papers. You had to write diagnosis 5 times, planned therapy three times, whatever.
19:17:43 <Keelhaul> well install openmrs and check it out
19:17:56 <Keelhaul> lots of functionality has to be added via modules
19:17:59 <Keelhaul> such as reporting
19:18:26 <SparFux> yes.
19:21:47 <Keelhaul> so when you book a room
19:21:56 <Keelhaul> what data do you enter
19:22:04 <Keelhaul> room name, doctors name and patient name?
19:22:05 <Keelhaul> etc
19:22:37 <Keelhaul> or rather, is the patient to be treated always known when you book a room
19:22:39 <SparFux> Well, in case of operating-room, it's patient's data and who will operate, how long it takes ( to be able to plan things ).
19:23:01 <Keelhaul> because that can be expressed as encounters
19:23:11 <Keelhaul> all that's missing is a calendar view
19:23:14 <Keelhaul> but that could be added
19:24:21 <SparFux> Keelhaul: ideally you would have a system with all patients stored and all physicians available (i.e. not on holiday) stored. Then you'd have the physicians mark patients who will have to be operated with information how urgent that is. That should give some other physician or the same physician later on the day to pull the patients on a scheduling plan for a specific day and then pull some physician available in there, too, to do the operation
19:25:22 <Keelhaul> hmm
19:25:23 <SparFux> In HIS.html I described that room management as a simple calnedar management in an ERP but with configurable arbitrary multiple peaces of data dislpayed in the calendar view, yes.
19:25:51 <Keelhaul> encounters only define one physician
19:25:58 <Keelhaul> and one patient
19:26:25 <SparFux> Yes, that's not it, of course.
19:27:29 <Keelhaul> well, you can select from all patients and all physicians
19:27:35 <Keelhaul> but being on holiday is not supported
19:27:46 <Keelhaul> and an encounter can only have one physician and one patient selected
19:28:03 <Keelhaul> if you need a second patient, you have to add a second encounter
19:30:35 <SparFux> I will set up forms entry tomorrow. Have to go for now. Thx for the help so far. :-)
19:30:48 <Keelhaul> np
19:30:49 <Keelhaul> cya
19:31:09 <Keelhaul> form entry needs infopath to be installed on every client computer
19:31:15 <Keelhaul> html form entry, however, is completely web based
19:31:28 <SparFux> yes, I mean htmlformentry module :-)
19:31:57 <SparFux> bye
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19:37:22 <jmiranda> Keelhaul, i read that article last week
19:37:40 <Keelhaul> jmiranda: how ambigous is that claim?
19:37:47 <jmiranda> i know
19:38:08 <Keelhaul> that was a question =P
19:38:11 <jmiranda> one of the biggest things not factored into the equation is what type of workflows the hospital/clinic has in place
19:38:36 <jmiranda> you can't just drop a computer into a clinic and expect efficiency to be improved
19:39:03 <jmiranda> doctors i've spoken to UW hospital hate using epic because it slows them down
19:39:25 <Keelhaul> whats epic
19:39:27 <jmiranda> because it requires them to do things they wouldn't ordinarily need to deal with
19:39:39 <jmiranda> EPIC is one of the big EMRs in the states
19:39:43 <Keelhaul> o
19:39:46 <Keelhaul> more like epic fail then
19:39:48 <jmiranda> based in Madison, WI (where i live)
19:39:50 <Keelhaul> amirite ;]
19:39:53 <jmiranda> exactly
19:40:18 <jmiranda> and they frustrate the heck out of doctors because they have their "implementers" come around the hospital to do evaluations on the system
19:40:26 <jmiranda> they talk to doctors, get feedback
19:40:32 <jmiranda> and then never implement the suggestions
19:40:39 <Keelhaul> =/
19:40:46 <jmiranda> it takes them years to make an improvement
19:41:03 <jmiranda> but, do a study like that at the VA (veterans administration) hospitals
19:41:07 <Keelhaul> wait
19:41:18 <Keelhaul> ith ought you libr in rhode island
19:41:21 <Keelhaul> live*
19:41:35 <jmiranda> which happens to be a single payer institution (government run) and the doctors love that system
19:41:43 <jmiranda> grew up there
19:41:48 <Keelhaul> o
19:41:56 <jmiranda> lived in nyc/boston for my early adult life
19:42:01 <jmiranda> and moved to madison a few years ago
19:42:22 <Keelhaul> o
19:43:22 <jmiranda> anyway, i like the fact that people are doing studies on EMR efficiency, but i'd like to see them study the human side of the system as well
19:51:22 <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11374]: ncd:Fixing some issues found during DG1 segment testing. <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11374>
20:23:24 <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11378]: ncd: Fixes for ResultStorageHelper and DG1 segments. <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11378> || OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11377]: ncd: Fixing a null pointer exception in … <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11377> || OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11376]: ncd:More fixes from DG1 segment testing. <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11376> || OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11375]: serialization.xstream: moving all file from root into trunk (using … <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11375> || Justin Miranda: OpenMRS Developers Conference (Oct 2009) <http://blog.justinmiranda.com/2009/10/openmrs-conference-developers.html>
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20:37:32 <Mkop1> jmiranda: I actually considered applying for a job at epic at one point
20:37:53 <Mkop1> I'd love to work for an EMR company, but I have no interest in living in Madison
20:37:55 <jmiranda> Mkop1, it's a pretty good company
20:37:59 <Mkop1> hmmm, question:
20:38:06 <Mkop1> do you know if PIH is looking for people?
20:38:09 <jmiranda> they seem to treat their employees well
20:38:20 <Mkop1> I wouldn't mind living in boston
20:38:40 <jmiranda> they're just too big and can't move quickly enough to make people happy
20:39:11 <jmiranda> Mkop1, http://www.pih.org/youcando/employment.html
20:42:20 <Mkop1> jmiranda: do you know anything about this Junior Software Engineer, Division of Global Health Equity?
20:42:29 <Mkop1> (other than what I can see for myself on that site)
20:42:38 <jmiranda> not really
20:42:45 <jmiranda> ghd is pretty sweet though
20:44:00 <jmiranda> ghdonline is a community/collaboration website for medical professionals around the world
20:44:03 <Keelhaul> heh
20:44:11 <Keelhaul> they're actually looking for a full time openmrs dev?
20:44:14 <jmiranda> helping to improve best practices and knowledge transfer
20:44:41 <jmiranda> well i'll be ...
20:45:25 <Mkop1> ?
20:46:25 <jmiranda> it's an expression
20:46:29 <jmiranda> "well, i'll be damned"
20:46:42 <Mkop1> oh
20:46:50 <jmiranda> GHD is a pretty cool group
20:47:00 <Keelhaul> where are they based
20:47:03 <Mkop1> I was hoping it wasn't gonna be something like "...leaving in 6 months so they're looking to replace me"
20:47:07 <Mkop1> lol
20:47:16 <jmiranda> they've had some really good project managers over the last couple of years
20:47:35 <jmiranda> so its a good fit for someone young, learning the ropes of software development best practices
20:48:00 <jmiranda> not a chance :)
20:48:03 <Mkop1> I never know how strict they are with the qualifications listed
20:48:03 <Keelhaul> lol
20:48:18 <Keelhaul> who
20:48:19 <Mkop1> "
20:48:19 <Mkop1> ¿ Bachelor¿s Degree in Computer Science (or a related field) and 2 years work experience required "
20:48:27 <Mkop1> companies in general
20:48:39 <Keelhaul> yea, the work experience part gave me a hard time for 4-5 months
20:48:51 <Mkop1> I will have a bachelors in bioengineering (not CS, but probably close enough) but I definitely don't have 2 years work experience
20:49:07 <Keelhaul> well
20:49:25 <Keelhaul> you might be able to count the experience you made as a student
20:49:44 <jmiranda> yeah, don't discount your time working with openmrs
20:50:01 <Mkop1> even counting that, I don't really have two years
20:50:33 <jmiranda> having the word "openmrs" on your resume might be just the thing to get you a phone interview
20:50:38 <Mkop1> I've had one summer programming (in Matlab though)
20:50:49 <Mkop1> one summer of kinda-programming but more research-like
20:50:56 <Mkop1> two semesters of part-time programming
20:51:16 <Mkop1> and six months of reading openmrs listserv/forums
20:51:28 <Keelhaul> heh
20:51:40 <Keelhaul> reading openmrs mailing lists is almost a full time job =D
20:51:54 <Mkop1> to be honest, I've learned a LOT in those six months, but it's not actual work experience
20:52:09 <Keelhaul> when are you graduating
20:52:25 <Mkop1> May
20:52:36 <Keelhaul> do you have to do a final project in a related field or smt?
20:53:30 <Mkop1> I have a senior design project, but the code portion isn't huge
20:53:36 <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: Justin Miranda: Fixing an existing subversion project to migrate to the trunk/branches/tags convention <http://blog.justinmiranda.com/2009/12/fixing-existing-subversion-project-to.html>
20:53:45 <Mkop1> so far I have 80 lines of C++ code
20:54:28 <Mkop1> depending which Microscope software we use I might need to write a driver for the DAQ card
20:54:43 <jmiranda> Mkop1, yeah it's tough to interview for a job that requires 2 years of experience
20:54:43 <Mkop1> driver = an adapter for the software, using the device manufacturer's SDK
20:55:05 <jmiranda> but it's not impossible if you have enough experience in the skills they're looking for
20:55:07 <Mkop1> the problem is, all of them want 2 years of experience!
20:55:51 <Mkop1> yeah
20:55:56 <Keelhaul> jmiranda: you finally found someone for that pharmacy stock system?
20:56:01 <jmiranda> companies are looking to cut costs at the moment, so if you can deal with less money and you're at a similar skill level as the two year candidates
20:56:07 <jmiranda> then you've got a chance
20:56:15 <jmiranda> Keelhaul, :)
20:56:17 <jmiranda> yeah
20:56:21 <jmiranda> me
20:56:22 <Mkop1> I don't think I have enough experience in J2EE, but I probably do in the stuff the GHD people list
20:56:24 <Keelhaul> lol
20:56:31 <Keelhaul> jmiranda: so you didnt find anyone?
20:57:08 <Keelhaul> "J2EE" is quite ambigous
20:57:31 <Keelhaul> in the openmrs context, it probably means the technology openmrs uses
20:57:36 <jmiranda> Keelhaul, i'm not exactly sure what's going on
20:57:37 <Keelhaul> but others will expect EJB and what not
20:58:51 <Mkop1> you know what? I've procrastinated enough. I'm gonna send out a (few) resume/cover letter(s) right now
20:59:06 <jmiranda> but it's my project unless we find another developer to work on it
20:59:16 <jmiranda> Mkop1, there we go
20:59:20 <jmiranda> that's the spirit
20:59:46 <jmiranda> Keelhaul, were you thinking about working on it?
20:59:47 <Keelhaul> "Are you willing to work on Saturdays?" =P
21:00:01 <Keelhaul> jmiranda: i applied for that back in march
21:00:03 <Mkop1> well, I'm not gonna email PIH right now, because I need to have a different resume and totally different cover letter for something like that
21:00:16 <Keelhaul> but it didnt quite work out
21:00:31 <Mkop1> what I have currently is more focused on medical devices and bioengineering than software development
21:00:40 <jmiranda> Keelhaul, your side or ours?
21:00:45 <jmiranda> it's a pretty interesting project
21:01:12 <jmiranda> i am unfortunately in the process of over-engineering it
21:01:13 <Keelhaul> jmiranda: work visa issues on your side, followed by time issues on my side because i took another job
21:01:46 <jmiranda> were you planning to move to the states?
21:01:59 <Keelhaul> well i woudlnt have said no =P
21:02:07 <Keelhaul> thing was, the work permit issue was unclear
21:02:22 <Keelhaul> i was supposed to work on rwanda reports from home in the meantime
21:02:38 <Keelhaul> but then i had a shot with a local company and juggling both didnt quite work out
21:02:48 <jmiranda> yeah, too bad
21:03:37 <Keelhaul> funny thing is
21:03:47 <Keelhaul> i remember reading eclipse rcp on that job description
21:03:55 <Keelhaul> which i work with now most of the time lol
21:05:09 <jmiranda> Keelhaul, really?
21:05:12 <jmiranda> what do you think?
21:05:34 <Keelhaul> i like it
21:05:39 <jmiranda> i've actually been meaning to write a blog entry about which technologies to adopt for this project
21:05:44 <Keelhaul> nice framework for standalone apps
21:05:59 <jmiranda> what if i was to embed jetty and a database inside RCP?
21:06:03 <Keelhaul> some widgets arent quite portable between platforms
21:06:04 <jmiranda> what would you say :)
21:06:05 <Keelhaul> windows is native
21:06:11 <Keelhaul> but mac and linux messes up sometimes
21:06:24 <jmiranda> yeah, BIRT RCP only works on Windows
21:06:28 <jmiranda> i always wondered why
21:06:41 <Keelhaul> it uses GTK on lunix
21:06:46 <Keelhaul> cocoa on mac
21:09:38 <Keelhaul> jmiranda: whats jetty for?
21:09:50 <Keelhaul> communication?
21:10:09 <jmiranda> yeah
21:10:36 <jmiranda> each location will have a standalone app to deal with their own stock
21:11:28 <jmiranda> but we need to send out broadcasts or allow other sites to pull current stock numbers, orders received, orders sent
21:11:47 <jmiranda> i actually want to build the entire app as a web app, embedded in rcp
21:12:05 <jmiranda> sounds stupid, but we need the rcp part to help with ease of install and updates
21:12:16 <jmiranda> (and ease of use)
21:12:30 * Mkop1 just sent out my first resume/cover letter email!
21:12:56 <Keelhaul> jmiranda: sounds ok
21:13:02 <Keelhaul> Mkop1: are oyu two persons =o
21:13:04 <jmiranda> yeah, it's just bothering me
21:13:23 <Mkop1> yeah, I don't know why that Mkop1 guy is sending out _my_ resume...
21:13:33 <jmiranda> so much infrastructure to do a few simple use cases
21:14:25 <jmiranda> but i'm looking at it from the perspective that we need to a good offline client
21:14:31 <jmiranda> framework
21:14:47 <jmiranda> and this might be a good opportunity to test it out
21:15:27 <jmiranda> anyway, i keep going back-and-forth on the different options
21:15:32 <Keelhaul> and by offline you mean just contained on the current computer?
21:15:35 <Keelhaul> or within a LAN
21:15:38 <Keelhaul> or an area
21:15:42 <Keelhaul> i forgot
21:16:03 <jmiranda> it needs to be on the LAN because you want to have multiple clients
21:16:14 <jmiranda> which makes it even more difficult
21:16:14 <Keelhaul> yea
21:16:24 <Keelhaul> on the other hand, a browser will work on a lan as well =P
21:16:37 <jmiranda> but offline in the sense that we don't need to be connected to a server somewhere else
21:16:42 <jmiranda> right, that's the thought
21:17:02 <jmiranda> which is why i'm thinking about building it as an embedded webapp
21:17:07 <Keelhaul> question is whether you need an interface which is more capable than a web client
21:17:18 <Keelhaul> although a lot is possible with jquery and what not nowadays
21:17:19 <jmiranda> the problem with a webapp (like openmrs) is maintenance
21:17:50 <jmiranda> and we don't have anyone who's going to be able to maintain this new app in 7 more sites in rwanda
21:17:59 <Keelhaul> well
21:18:06 <Keelhaul> the rcp client will have to be maintained on every computer
21:18:15 <jmiranda> i guess stability and low maintenance overhead is my main concern
21:19:07 <jmiranda> yes, but i'm hoping that by adopting a stable platform that has the update/install taken care of
21:19:12 <jmiranda> then it won't be as big of a headache
21:19:34 <Keelhaul> hm
21:19:37 <Keelhaul> you mean using eclipse'
21:19:42 <Keelhaul> s update plugin
21:19:46 <Keelhaul> or feature
21:19:46 <jmiranda> but i'm anticipating that this is going to be more difficult than we think
21:20:14 <jmiranda> yeah, the built-in update feature
21:20:24 <jmiranda> we don't want to have to go to the site and do the update ourselves
21:21:31 <jmiranda> so having the app configured to upgrade on a schedule or on demand will allow someone with less technical knowledge to upgrade when necessary
21:21:48 <jmiranda> but i haven't always had great success with the updates in eclipse
21:22:02 <jmiranda> and i'm concerned about issues with the data model changing between updates
21:22:58 <jmiranda> essentially, when i look at this application months down the road, i see the openmrs architecture inside a desktop client
21:23:06 <Mkop1> why do all the companies I want to work for have to be located out in the boondocks?
21:23:22 <Mkop1> this one company is based in McFarland, WI
21:23:28 <Mkop1> probably not too far from you, justin
21:23:29 <jmiranda> whoa
21:23:56 <Mkop1> old McFarland had a farm, EIEIO
21:24:45 <jmiranda> yeah, just out off the beltline
21:30:55 <Keelhaul> jmiranda: where would you keep the db?
21:31:08 <Keelhaul> it'd be on a lan somewhere outside the clients, right?
21:31:10 <jmiranda> on the client
21:31:14 <Keelhaul> o
21:31:16 <jmiranda> embedded at the moment
21:31:21 <Keelhaul> ah ok
21:31:23 <jmiranda> (is the thought)
21:31:25 <Keelhaul> what kind of db thne
21:31:38 <jmiranda> probably something embeddable like derby
21:31:55 <jmiranda> but there are lots of risks there too
21:32:35 <jmiranda> embedded database sometimes don't allow access via external clients
21:32:58 <Keelhaul> hmm
21:33:08 <jmiranda> for instance, i've read that mysql embedded database aren't accessible outside the client app
21:33:09 <Keelhaul> what about H2
21:33:40 <jmiranda> never heard of it
21:33:52 * jmiranda is looking at the H2 site now
21:34:06 <Keelhaul> supposedly the successor to hsqldb or something
21:34:34 <Keelhaul> it even has its own query language, but it's still very young and kinda crappy
21:38:26 <jmiranda> i'll give it a look anyway
21:39:08 <Keelhaul> i tried using it for a project
21:39:16 <Keelhaul> the query language that is
21:39:25 <Keelhaul> ended up using H2 with ebean for ORM
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21:50:13 <jmiranda> Keelhaul, why ebean?
21:51:31 <Keelhaul> jmiranda: was looking for something that supports JPA but is lean
21:51:45 <jmiranda> do you like it?
21:52:16 <Keelhaul> it took a while to get it to work because apparently they refactored a lot between versions but failed to update their docs
21:52:22 <Keelhaul> but now it works
21:52:35 <Keelhaul> i wouldnt use it for larger projects like openmrs
21:52:40 <Keelhaul> but for small databases, it's nice
21:53:13 <Mkop1> where is this system for? clinics in Malawi?
21:55:47 <jmiranda> Mkop1, rwanda pharmacies
21:56:13 <jmiranda> but will probably be used elsewhere too
22:59:41 <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [11379]: Creating personrefactoring branch to refactor users so they no longer … <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/11379>
23:02:32 <Keelhaul> hah finally
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