| 00:00:05 | <docpaul> i got a good feeling about you. |
| 00:00:11 | <docpaul> take care! |
| 00:01:10 | <r0bby> when i get off my ass :) |
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| 07:45:37 | <nribeka> hi all |
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| 08:03:49 | <nribeka> bwolfe: i have a question and idea on automatic webapp update module |
| 08:04:03 | <bwolfe> nribeka: sure, shoot! |
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| 08:04:57 | <nribeka> do you want the patch to be for each file or one big patch (if i found a lot that need to be changed) for the internationalization? |
| 08:05:31 | <bwolfe> nribeka: one big patch. you can select "create patch" on the parent folder and create a patch for multiple files |
| 08:06:52 | <nribeka> ok, next one, i found this one inside the jsp, do you consider this kind of thing need an internationalization: The page xxx cannot be found. Check the link and try again. |
| 08:07:57 | <nribeka> that's all the question. |
| 08:08:30 | <nribeka> my idea for the webapp update is by using Cargo (http://cargo.codehaus.org) |
| 08:09:07 | <nribeka> they have a thin wrapper to manage your j2ee container |
| 08:09:53 | <bwolfe> nribeka: interesting |
| 08:09:53 | <nribeka> and the have the notion deployable (WAR and EAR) in the API that can be deployed to container |
| 08:10:09 | <nribeka> *they have the notion deployable |
| 08:10:24 | <paranaliyanage> Hi Ben |
| 08:10:26 | <nribeka> so we can manage the deployable and the container |
| 08:10:33 | <bwolfe> hey paranaliyanage |
| 08:10:58 | <bwolfe> nribeka: so the cargo war is just another webapp that would sit next to openmrs in tomcat/jetty/whatever ? |
| 08:11:05 | <paranaliyanage> you asked me to come for a chat |
| 08:11:12 | <paranaliyanage> I m GSoC guy |
| 08:11:18 | <nribeka> we can start the container, stop it and deploy the deployable (openmrs war file) |
| 08:11:43 | <nribeka> carge is in form of jar (API) |
| 08:12:03 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: yep, see your email now. |
| 08:13:12 | <paranaliyanage> u send me a mail?? |
| 08:13:12 | <bwolfe> nribeka: have you used it before? (do you know anything more than whats on their webpage there) |
| 08:13:34 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: not since that first reply asking you to come here. :-) |
| 08:13:34 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: what are you ideas on enhancing patient image support? |
| 08:13:49 | <paranaliyanage> :) |
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| 08:14:07 | <paranaliyanage> its a nice idea |
| 08:14:10 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: its a fairly basic module that would just let users manage photos for each user. (a way to upload a photo, choose a default, see past photos, etc) |
| 08:14:10 | <nribeka> i think i'm familiar enough with the API |
| 08:14:24 | <bwolfe> nribeka: so you've used it? |
| 08:14:42 | <nribeka> i help my friend code to enable cargo to support a container before |
| 08:15:00 | <bwolfe> ah ok |
| 08:15:17 | <nribeka> he want to manage a container that is not supported by cargo (yet at that time) |
| 08:15:18 | <paranaliyanage> so I need to add that component and add it to the web application |
| 08:15:20 | <bwolfe> so how do you deploy the jar? just load it into the tomcat's lib directory? |
| 08:15:25 | <paranaliyanage> am I right?? |
| 08:15:55 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: well, its a module, so its a separate plugin for openmrs, essentially. see http://openmrs.org/wiki/modules |
| 08:16:42 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: I didn't really get what you meant by your current project. how are you encoding a picture in a barcode?? |
| 08:17:15 | <paranaliyanage> human can understand 32*32 |
| 08:17:19 | <paranaliyanage> pictures |
| 08:17:29 | <paranaliyanage> no smaller ones |
| 08:17:36 | <nribeka> i think we can include it inside the openmrs lib |
| 08:18:00 | <paranaliyanage> within a 2-D barcode we are encoding both data and a picture |
| 08:18:17 | <paranaliyanage> U konw 2D barcodes right?? |
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| 08:18:39 | <paranaliyanage> So it is just like a portable data file |
| 08:18:56 | <paranaliyanage> Consider ID card for an example |
| 08:19:04 | <nribeka> but my concern is openmrs update module will be depend on cargo, is it ok? |
| 08:19:18 | <paranaliyanage> so we can encode face + name and other details |
| 08:20:05 | <paranaliyanage> got me?? |
| 08:20:59 | <bwolfe> nribeka: hmm, well there are two parts to the openmrs updater. there is the part that can be included in the war file: it checks for updates from openmrs and downloads it. the update includes both a new war file and a sqldiff file to run on the database. the sql file can be run by the part in openmrs. however, to update the war file, tomcat needs to be restarted. the war file needs to be dropped in <tomcathome>/webapps/openmrs.war a |
| 08:20:59 | <bwolfe> nd tomca tneeds to be restarted. the tricky part is starting tomcat from a webapp that is stopped! :-) I was thinking this project would require a small java file that could be either spawned or run in the background that does that restarting for the user after the war file is updating |
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| 08:21:24 | <bwolfe> nribeka: dependencies are ok, yes...especially if it is a module |
| 08:21:42 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: so with a plain eye you would just see a barcode? |
| 08:21:52 | <bwolfe> and when its scanned and decoded you can get an image and data out of it? |
| 08:21:52 | <paranaliyanage> of course |
| 08:21:55 | <nribeka> that's what cargo are meant for |
| 08:22:03 | <paranaliyanage> yep |
| 08:22:06 | <nribeka> i think we can fork another process |
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| 08:22:17 | <bwolfe> nribeka: hmm, very interesting |
| 08:22:34 | <bwolfe> nribeka: and sounds easier than my idea. :-) |
| 08:22:38 | <nribeka> the process will stop tomcat, deploy the new deployable (openmrs war file) and then start the tomcat again |
| 08:23:05 | <nribeka> hopefully it easier, well the api of cargo is pretty straight forward |
| 08:23:07 | <bwolfe> ooo, very sweet |
| 08:23:44 | <bwolfe> nribeka: can a jvm create another jvm? thats the problem I see: tomcat is in its own jvm...any process it creates is in that jvm...and stopping tomcat stops that jvm :-/ |
| 08:24:28 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: do you have a place this is used or will be used? |
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| 08:25:07 | <paranaliyanage> In our country, People registration Department is going to develop this |
| 08:25:39 | <paranaliyanage> because people can't easily cheat by making different ID cards |
| 08:25:43 | <nribeka> wow, i haven't think about it |
| 08:25:51 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: is that going to be a national database |
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| 08:26:15 | <paranaliyanage> no |
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| 08:26:22 | <paranaliyanage> there are no databases |
| 08:26:35 | <bwolfe> nribeka: I don't know that for sure though, can you do a little research on it? :-) |
| 08:26:35 | <paranaliyanage> 2D barcodes replaces databases |
| 08:26:44 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: ah, so people have all of their data with them |
| 08:27:11 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: is it encrypted somehow? I'm sure people could fake it if they knew your algorithm |
| 08:27:21 | <paranaliyanage> So we wrote the application to decode the image and get data |
| 08:27:31 | <nribeka> ok probably i'll have a look at it again and do some test |
| 08:27:35 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: where country do you live it? (who is going to implement it) |
| 08:27:43 | <paranaliyanage> Sri Lanka |
| 08:28:05 | <paranaliyanage> have u heard?? :) |
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| 08:29:29 | <nribeka> bwolfe: i'll let you know about the result |
| 08:29:50 | <bwolfe> nribeka: yeah, definitely looking forward to it |
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| 08:30:13 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: ah, I missed that in your email :-) |
| 08:30:29 | <paranaliyanage> Normally 1D barcodes gives us a index |
| 08:30:40 | <paranaliyanage> we have to use it to retrieve records |
| 08:30:57 | <paranaliyanage> 2D barcodes contains data itself |
| 08:31:00 | <nribeka> i surely hope we can use cargo because we can create installer too using the same idea |
| 08:31:07 | <paranaliyanage> so it can be used in many applications |
| 08:31:32 | <paranaliyanage> even in library system |
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| 08:37:35 | <paranaliyanage> so Ben it seems similar requirement |
| 08:38:06 | <paranaliyanage> am I rught |
| 08:38:14 | <paranaliyanage> right |
| 08:38:16 | <paranaliyanage> ? |
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| 08:42:14 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: well, this project isn't about encoding the images at all |
| 08:42:27 | <bwolfe> its just a simple "upload, store, browse" kind of module |
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| 08:42:45 | <paranaliyanage> I mean bit of image processing |
| 08:42:52 | <paranaliyanage> not encoding |
| 08:42:52 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: it is an interesting concept for patients cards though. |
| 08:43:01 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: I don't know, not much processing even :-) |
| 08:43:28 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: there might be hope for a module that does some special patient registration and patient identification card printing |
| 08:43:57 | <bwolfe> because we (at least in Kenya for out implmentation, I don't know what others do) print off a very simple card that just has the patient's name and medical record number |
| 08:44:17 | <bwolfe> (national id numbers are not really used at all...so we make our own numbers for the patients to use throughout our clinics) |
| 08:45:01 | <bwolfe> it would be cool if the registration process included the input clerk taking a picture, getting some demographic information, then printing a card that has 1) name 2) id number and 3) all of that encoded information |
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| 08:45:48 | <bwolfe> then if/when the patient went to another clinic, the other clinic could just scan the barcode and see a picture and get the name, address, id number, height/weight, etc |
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| 08:45:56 | <bwolfe> hey there aciniglio |
| 08:45:58 | <paranaliyanage> :) |
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| 08:47:15 | <paranaliyanage> even in this case we can use 2D barcodes |
| 08:47:45 | <paranaliyanage> but if the data capacity is hight it might not useful |
| 08:47:59 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: how much can you store in a barcode? |
| 08:48:10 | <bwolfe> in, say, a barcode that would fit on a normal sized id card |
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| 08:53:42 | <paranaliyanage> only 1900 characters |
| 08:54:02 | <paranaliyanage> with out face |
| 08:54:27 | <paranaliyanage> if w einclude face at most 500 |
| 08:56:55 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: that'd be enough for basic demographics |
| 08:58:13 | <paranaliyanage> its better then |
| 08:58:55 | <paranaliyanage> So are u hoping to add it as a new project idea? |
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| 09:01:02 | <paranaliyanage> is there any card template |
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| 09:07:37 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: no, no template. just potential ideas. :-) |
| 09:08:05 | <paranaliyanage> So it need to be designed |
| 09:08:23 | <paranaliyanage> should be accept by others |
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| 09:16:23 | <nribeka> bwolfe: as you said, they share the same jvm :( |
| 09:18:21 | <nribeka> if we create another class just to do the stop, deploy and start then it then the class will be a daemon process and the if kill this class then the tomcat are also stop because the tomcat will share the same jvm with the java class |
| 09:20:54 | <paranaliyanage> bwolfe: u there? |
| 09:22:11 | <bwolfe> nribeka: hmm, so can cargo act as its own daemon? |
| 09:22:20 | <bwolfe> yeah, still here paranaliyanage |
| 09:22:30 | <paranaliyanage> so whats ur idea |
| 09:23:33 | <paranaliyanage> r u going to mentor this as a new project for GSoC |
| 09:23:35 | <nribeka> i'm still testing it :-) |
| 09:24:09 | <nribeka> i'll let you know the results, i have to go to campuss now :-) |
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| 09:24:53 | <nribeka> happy easter day to all ... |
| 09:24:56 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: well, it would depend on priorities |
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| 09:25:02 | <bwolfe> and who/what is accepted |
| 09:25:08 | <bwolfe> cya nribeka |
| 09:25:21 | <nribeka> cya bwolfe |
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| 09:26:54 | <paranaliyanage> bwolfe: I m going to have my dinner |
| 09:28:48 | <paranaliyanage> can we discuss this further tomorrow |
| 09:28:58 | <paranaliyanage> r u online tomorrow?? |
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| 09:31:34 | <bwolfe> paranaliyanage: probably not |
| 09:31:43 | <bwolfe> have to drive north to see some family tomorrow and sunday |
| 09:33:05 | <paranaliyanage> have a safe journey |
| 09:33:07 | <paranaliyanage> :) |
| 09:33:18 | <paranaliyanage> so lets meet on monday |
| 09:33:30 | <docpaul> para: there will be a ton of folks here next week to answer your questions |
| 09:33:57 | <paranaliyanage> I will go throught modules as well |
| 09:34:23 | <docpaul> you can always join the mailing list as well, and post your questions there. |
| 09:34:32 | <docpaul> people will answer 24/7 |
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| 09:37:16 | <atomicturtle> docpaul: did you test logging into the new server? I wanted to cross that off my list |
| 09:37:38 | <docpaul> heya scott! |
| 09:37:54 | <docpaul> thanks *SO MUCH* for finding the server for us! |
| 09:38:16 | <docpaul> i'm knee deep in making GSoC project descriptions... but, I can login real quick... gimme a sec |
| 09:38:31 | <docpaul> do you have time for a few quick questions? |
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| 09:38:44 | <paranaliyanage> ok |
| 09:39:16 | <atomicturtle> docpaul: sure |
| 09:39:43 | <docpaul> is this donation on the scale of reliability of xsihosting or is it... more secure? :) |
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| 09:40:08 | <atomicturtle> this is a dedicated box, it is ours. Donated by a larger company (2000-ish servers) in miami |
| 09:40:12 | <atomicturtle> called Volico.com |
| 09:40:12 | <docpaul> ie, do you think we should do something with them to ensure that we have their dedicated support? |
| 09:40:21 | <atomicturtle> Im working on another server now, to spread out the load/risk |
| 09:40:30 | <docpaul> ie, pay them for something extra or something? |
| 09:41:29 | <atomicturtle> it wouldnt hurt, they do co-location as well. They offered a full rack for 500$/month |
| 09:41:55 | <atomicturtle> thats a pretty stellar deal right there, assuming we needed to park a full rack of gear there |
| 09:42:25 | <docpaul> if you could add one thing to the donated server, what would it be? |
| 09:42:43 | <atomicturtle> more ram |
| 09:42:49 | <docpaul> can we pay them for that? |
| 09:42:49 | <atomicturtle> its 1G |
| 09:42:53 | <atomicturtle> sure |
| 09:42:58 | <docpaul> ok... then that's what we should do. |
| 09:43:02 | <docpaul> how much would that cost? |
| 09:43:57 | <atomicturtle> Good question, we need to know more about that hardware first |
| 09:44:17 | <atomicturtle> I can ask Gadi (the guy that set this up for us) |
| 09:44:44 | <atomicturtle> I think we could lease another server from them for about 50$/month |
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| 09:45:54 | <docpaul> i guess what i'd like to see is us putting *some* skin in the game so that they feel guilty about pulling the rug from under us |
| 09:46:15 | <atomicturtle> right |
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| 09:47:19 | <atomicturtle> I'll get a quote from Gadi and forward it to you guys, cool? |
| 09:47:39 | <docpaul> so, why dont you think about that... and come up with an approach... anything under $50/month is a no brainer.... anything above $100/month we probably need to talk about |
| 09:47:52 | <docpaul> that's great |
| 09:48:13 | <atomicturtle> roger |
| 09:48:19 | <docpaul> make sure they understand that we appreciate the donations, and that the money we'd be spending could go towards supporting a stipend for a new developer |
| 09:48:31 | <docpaul> a developer from africa, or something |
| 09:48:34 | <atomicturtle> right |
| 09:48:43 | <docpaul> you know what i'm getting at. |
| 09:48:48 | <atomicturtle> absolutely |
| 09:49:04 | <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Tickets: Ticket #639 (task closed): Implement ReportSchemaXML macros as a global property <http://dev.openmrs.org/ticket/639#comment:5> |
| 09:49:10 | <docpaul> way to go scott... you surprise me sometimes with your generosity. :) |
| 09:49:17 | <atomicturtle> I'll see what else I can russel up with a little more digital begging |
| 09:49:18 | <docpaul> i should stop being so surprised. |
| 09:49:45 | <docpaul> dude, btw, i'm definitely coming to DC next month |
| 09:49:50 | <atomicturtle> these guys all use my stuff, so I can wield guilt :P |
| 09:49:51 | <docpaul> maybe we could have lunch? |
| 09:50:08 | <atomicturtle> "Why do you hate people with tuberculosis so much!?" |
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| 09:50:12 | <docpaul> hahah |
| 09:50:13 | <atomicturtle> <free server> |
| 09:50:28 | <atomicturtle> yeah, let me know when you're in town |
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| 10:25:17 | <docpaul> hi glen! |
| 10:27:21 | <Glen> Hi Paul |
| 10:27:35 | <docpaul> what brings you to the channel? |
| 10:28:19 | <Glen> Follower of the regenstrief institute for a long time (since USAM) ... saw your google presentation at google video |
| 10:28:38 | <docpaul> ah, great. |
| 10:28:42 | <atomicturtle> doesnt paul remind you of the lead singer from wang chung |
| 10:28:59 | <docpaul> i ride on the shoulders of much bigger men than I. :) |
| 10:29:29 | <Glen> hehe |
| 10:30:09 | <Glen> so paul is a physician ... atomicturtle is what? |
| 10:30:10 | <docpaul> but we're trying to make some new paradigms in regenstrief, as you might have noticed |
| 10:30:27 | <atomicturtle> a turtle |
| 10:30:35 | <docpaul> a very generous benefactor and friend... from way back in the day |
| 10:30:43 | <Glen> very nice |
| 10:30:59 | <docpaul> so glen, are you in healthcare as well? |
| 10:31:41 | <Glen> I am, indeed. I have a MSc in Comp Sci with a major focus in standards-based data modelling. |
| 10:32:16 | <docpaul> awesome, my kind of guy... i definitely carry the banner of the database model and EAV design for the team |
| 10:32:33 | <Glen> I am located in British Columbia and work for one of the major regional health authorities here. |
| 10:33:12 | <atomicturtle> Im working on the systems and infrastructure support. My background is in information security |
| 10:33:39 | <Glen> very cool. turtle, you in the US too? |
| 10:33:47 | <atomicturtle> Yes, Im in washington DC |
| 10:34:57 | <Glen> so, how closely does the data model for openmrs reflect the systems at regenstrief? |
| 10:35:30 | <docpaul> glen: very very closely |
| 10:35:31 | <Glen> (confession. I haven't looked closely at the openmrs data model yet_ |
| 10:35:47 | <docpaul> why try to re-invent what has been proven to work over the past 30 years |
| 10:36:01 | <Glen> very true |
| 10:36:13 | <docpaul> we've just removed things that go beyond medical record systems, and added new aspects that RG hasn't thought up |
| 10:36:45 | <docpaul> one of the best aspects of our approach with OpenMRS is that with broad input comes better innovative ideas |
| 10:36:55 | <docpaul> and we try to incorporate as many of those as we can |
| 10:37:03 | <docpaul> but doing it in a way of course that scales |
| 10:37:58 | <docpaul> glen: FWIW, I'd love critical feedback on the OpenMRS approach... |
| 10:38:04 | <docpaul> so, if you have the time, i'm all ears |
| 10:38:30 | <docpaul> i think the best way to describe the data model is an operational data store |
| 10:38:51 | <docpaul> it has some aspects of a normalized database and some aspects that more approximate something like a data warehouse design |
| 10:39:03 | <Glen> (I need to know more before I can be critical) do you have aspirations beyond 3rd world countries? |
| 10:39:48 | <docpaul> hmm... tough one to answer... i guess what I'd say is we're not looking to conquer the world, but we know that what we've built is extensible certainly in environments outside of the developing world |
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| 10:40:24 | <atomicturtle> I tried to roll it out in Aspen, CO :P |
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| 10:40:37 | <docpaul> but we want a meaningful goal to drive us, not this ambiguous world conquering, poorly specified ambition |
| 10:41:25 | <Glen> I'm not that familiar with care in Africa but from a first glance it seems a lot simpler than over here. |
| 10:41:57 | <Glen> so you can reduce the scope of your integrated system |
| 10:41:57 | <docpaul> pepole in the US are using OpenMRS in increasing numbers, and b/c we're open source, we certainly can't (or want) to prevent that... but our development trajectory is led by meeting the needs of HIV/drug resistant TB clinics in developing countries |
| 10:42:03 | <docpaul> right, but we're building it in a way of course, that will allow at some future point, something grander |
| 10:42:13 | <docpaul> i just want to crawl effectively before we try to walk |
| 10:42:14 | <docpaul> :) |
| 10:43:00 | <Glen> it seems like a great approach. I wish vendors would do simple things well before trying to expand their scope (or at least try to use their own software) |
| 10:43:10 | <docpaul> it's easier for me to be driven by the philanthropic nature of what we're doing, and i'd imagine the same is the case with others... |
| 10:43:25 | <docpaul> we really push very hard on collaborative "bazaar"-type development |
| 10:43:39 | <atomicturtle> having worked with both VISTA and Medical Manager, I can attest to the advantage to the "Less is More" approach |
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| 10:44:55 | <Glen> I've seen some list traffic about mirth. what is driving integration right now? needs in aftrica or opportunities in the US? |
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| 10:45:44 | <docpaul> both... I've nurtured a very great relationship with the Webreach team... I think they realize that from their perspective, Mirth + OpenMRS is a lot more powerful to their service revenue model than Mirth alone |
| 10:46:02 | <docpaul> but they also feel compelled by what's going on in Africa to contribute to our community |
| 10:46:09 | <bwolfe> burke, seriously, whats with your connection?! |
| 10:46:11 | <docpaul> so they're like the perfect partners |
| 10:46:28 | <Glen> are they creating a support model for openmrs? |
| 10:46:29 | <burke> mbp sux |
| 10:46:43 | <bwolfe> mbp? |
| 10:46:53 | <docpaul> it's hard to complain when the webreach folks are (on their own dime) integrating the two softwares together |
| 10:46:54 | <burke> mbp = MacBook Pro |
| 10:46:55 | <docpaul> yes, they are. |
| 10:47:11 | <docpaul> in fact, they're tasked with implementing openmrs in skid row in LA |
| 10:47:20 | <Glen> paul: great news! |
| 10:47:27 | <pombreda> howdy! |
| 10:47:32 | <pombreda> docpaul: hi |
| 10:47:34 | <docpaul> for some of the indigent clinics there... which is the closest you'll see to third world in the US |
| 10:47:37 | <docpaul> heya phillipe! |
| 10:47:50 | <pombreda> we had met with burke @ the gsoc stuff |
| 10:47:50 | <docpaul> glen: it's exciting |
| 10:48:06 | <docpaul> phillipe, of course i remember you sipping mixed drinks at the pool |
| 10:48:08 | <docpaul> how are you? |
| 10:48:12 | <pombreda> who of you guys was at eclipse con ? |
| 10:48:16 | <pombreda> docpaul: doing great |
| 10:48:23 | <pombreda> sry for my bad memory |
| 10:48:31 | <docpaul> that was justin miranda |
| 10:48:34 | <docpaul> he's not on the channel |
| 10:48:57 | <docpaul> glen: as you can see, we're also working hard to integrate with the larger open source community |
| 10:49:11 | <docpaul> phillipe for example is an eclipse org jedi. :) |
| 10:50:03 | <Glen> docpaul: I've followed some of the other open source llists, and participated once in a while. But i've been sometimes disappointed by the infighting and lack of support for others. |
| 10:50:08 | <docpaul> glen: so pleased to see you up and around... please let us know how we can help you, or if there's a way you'd like to contribute |
| 10:50:09 | <pombreda> docpaul: :) |
| 10:50:15 | <docpaul> glen: oh man, tell me about it... |
| 10:50:31 | <Glen> docpaul: even on the yahoo openhealth list ... |
| 10:50:33 | <docpaul> glen: i'm not a big fan of the health open source community at large... it's all talk and little action |
| 10:50:44 | <pombreda> docpaul: just a heads up, thing are becoming quite serious about wysiwyg forms editing in eclipse |
| 10:51:02 | <docpaul> that's why we've at some level insulated ourselves from the yahoo groups stuff |
| 10:51:10 | <docpaul> we've = OpenMRS community |
| 10:51:14 | <pombreda> docpaul:health is not healthy? :-D |
| 10:51:51 | <docpaul> phillipe: interesting.. tell me more. We now have a sun consultant working with us, and after spending 30 hours, he feels as if the xforms stuff is too undercooked at this point as to make a bet on it |
| 10:51:52 | <bwolfe> pombreda: ooo, thats very good news! |
| 10:52:06 | <docpaul> do you feel otherwise? |
| 10:52:44 | <pombreda> docpaul: so in a nutshell: we co-repsented with Yves Yang his upcomming contribution to eclipse. http://www.eclipsecon.org/2008/?page=sub/&id=31 |
| 10:53:18 | <pombreda> which is a VE extensions for wysiwyg caretion of things such as forms with an xml ui language |
| 10:53:44 | <pombreda> docpaul: not specifically xforms, but the goal would be to create an xforms support for that |
| 10:53:54 | <pombreda> docpaul: all the abse mechaniscs are in there |
| 10:54:29 | <docpaul> so, does ve take in an xml schema as it's reference point? |
| 10:54:46 | <pombreda> docpaul: to give you an idea, it has been used originally by a major insurance company to enable business analysys to create and manage visually the designs of tons of business forms that they needed for their business |
| 10:55:03 | <pombreda> docpaul: anything can go in terms of output |
| 10:55:38 | <pombreda> docpaul: its is not schema based atm, but model based. |
| 10:55:44 | <pombreda> the emf model could be schema of course |
| 10:56:01 | <docpaul> so openmrs would have to generate emf |
| 10:56:18 | <pombreda> docpaul: well depends |
| 10:56:36 | <pombreda> if we go toward Xfoms, then that part would be handled in the xform implementation |
| 10:57:04 | <docpaul> it just seems like to me that xforms represents greatest numbers of thinking/inputs as to how the schema should be represented |
| 10:57:14 | <docpaul> but i'm just a simple caveman |
| 10:57:16 | <pombreda> docpaul: but alternative models could be supported, if you wanted to have a model that is very focused on your problem (ie special openmrs widgets) vs being general purpose |
| 10:57:49 | <Glen> docpaul: thanks for the introduction to the community. I'll probably contribute more when I get up to speed on the technology/approach. |
| 10:58:11 | <docpaul> i appreciate your architectural choices though, which allows you to build guis independent of the schema |
| 10:58:17 | <docpaul> glen: really, the pleasure is all mine |
| 10:58:38 | <docpaul> anything i can ever do to help you succeed, let me know... as you succeeding helps us all succeed. :) |
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| 11:00:42 | <docpaul> phillipe: i'd like to learn more... what'd be helpful for us all is to see an end to end demonstration of the workflow |
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| 11:00:48 | <docpaul> does such a thing exist? |
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| 11:49:36 | <OpenMRSBot> Recent updates in the world of openmrs: OpenMRS Changesets: Changeset [3684]: report-api-refactoring: Remove java 6 dependency in report xml macro … <http://dev.openmrs.org/changeset/3684> |
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| 12:05:08 | <alankelon> hello! did you have any experience in deploying openmrs in jboss or another servlet container? |
| 12:05:33 | <docpaul> yes |
| 12:05:40 | <docpaul> jboss and glassfish |
| 12:05:54 | <docpaul> worked in both |
| 12:06:02 | <alankelon> i'm researching about the summer of code project " Automated "In-line" OpenMRS Web Application Updates" |
| 12:06:12 | <alankelon> docpaul thanks :) |
| 12:06:42 | <alankelon> is that meant to work only with tomcat or whatever servlet container? |
| 12:07:35 | <docpaul> good question |
| 12:07:39 | <docpaul> i think we'd start with tomcat |
| 12:07:48 | <docpaul> we should specify this |
| 12:08:00 | <docpaul> but extra credit would be for other servlet containers |
| 12:08:09 | <docpaul> i literally just updated that description about an hour ago |
| 12:08:17 | <docpaul> we're editing the entire document as you type |
| 12:08:29 | <docpaul> burke and i are here at a sports bar doing the editing. :) |
| 12:09:08 | <alankelon> :) |
| 12:09:37 | <docpaul> recheck the page. :) |
| 12:10:08 | <alankelon> ok, docpaul |
| 12:10:52 | <alankelon> "The approach should work within Tomcat at a minimum, but 10 points extra credit for other servlet container support. :)" LOL |
| 12:11:30 | <alankelon> docpaul do you have information about openmrs being used in Brazil? |
| 12:11:56 | <docpaul> hmm... one of our very good friends, implementation partners is based out of Brazil |
| 12:13:12 | <docpaul> from what i understand there's a national system there... but the person to get more information on this would be Beatriz de Fario Leao |
| 12:13:41 | <docpaul> from what i understand, brazil is home to one of the top 10 java developers in the world |
| 12:13:47 | <docpaul> she works for beatriz |
| 12:14:09 | <docpaul> i'm still trying to figure out who the top 10 are? :) |
| 12:14:18 | <docpaul> er, how they figure out who the top 10 are |
| 12:14:24 | <atomicturtle> thunderdome |
| 12:15:20 | <docpaul> heh |
| 12:15:32 | <docpaul> alank: any other questions? otherwise, i'm going to get back to the project list |
| 12:17:25 | <alankelon> docpaul nonthing right now :) thank you for your help. |
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| 13:05:02 | <alankelon> hmmm researching a bit, I found a framework to help on this task: cargo.codehaus.org |
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| 13:06:08 | <alankelon> it doesn't use the tomcat api, but it seems to work. |
| 13:07:29 | <docpaul> cool, someone else wa talking about that today as well |
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| 13:12:30 | <alankelon> docpaul :) |
| 13:14:57 | <alankelon> the problem I see there is cargo community health. the last commit on svn was in may 2007 |
| 13:15:02 | <alankelon> this may be a risk. |
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| 13:15:56 | <docpaul> alank: you're my kind of guy |
| 13:15:58 | <docpaul> heh |
| 13:16:03 | <docpaul> that's important for sure |
| 13:17:46 | <alankelon> cargo is very a good project. i researched a bit more and found that catalina has an api to do such kind of job. because that I asked about multiple servlet container support |
| 13:26:39 | <docpaul> ah, http://projects.openmrs.org is getting much more up to my standards. :) |
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| 14:30:49 | <r0bby> you know it's bad when i avoid actual work and instead play |
| 14:31:17 | <r0bby> :X |
| 14:31:55 | <r0bby> I wanna play with the properties prototype :) |
| 14:32:06 | <r0bby> I have the code for the compiler, just need to compile |
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| 15:41:01 | <docpaul> :) |
| 15:41:14 | <docpaul> ok guys, burke and i worked pretty much all day on the projects page |
| 15:41:22 | <docpaul> we'll continue to work throughout the weekend |
| 15:41:28 | <docpaul> but there's a lot more new information there now |
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| 16:14:33 | <pombreda> docpaul: http://openmrs.org/wiki/Projects#Prepackaged_OpenMRS_Development_Studio edited |
| 16:14:37 | <OpenMRSBot> <http://ln-s.net/1iEY> (at openmrs.org) |
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| 16:52:45 | <atagar> Hi. I'm a prospective gsoc student. Per chance is Sean Doyle, Darius Jazayeri, or Hamish Fraser here? |
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| 21:56:20 | <docpaul> hi. :) |
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| 22:00:03 | <docpaul> heya catullus. :) |
| 22:00:07 | <catullus> hullo =) |
| 22:00:14 | <docpaul> what brings you to our final channel this evening? :) |
| 22:00:50 | <catullus> i'm heading to work w/ PIH starting on monday |
| 22:00:59 | <docpaul> how awesome. :) |
| 22:01:04 | <catullus> thought i'd check out the openMRS community |
| 22:01:08 | <docpaul> what's your name? |
| 22:01:10 | <catullus> chase |
| 22:01:14 | <docpaul> i'm paul, the co-founder of openmrs |
| 22:01:30 | <catullus> yes, i watched your lecture on google video =) nice to electronically meet you |
| 22:01:39 | <docpaul> just tucked family into bed, and so just checking in to see how things are going on the channel. :) |
| 22:01:54 | <docpaul> the gsoc stuff creates a lot of activity, and it's good to be present |
| 22:02:01 | <docpaul> are you an irc kind of guy? |
| 22:02:09 | <docpaul> hah, that video gets a lot of mileage |
| 22:02:22 | <catullus> i really only use irc for help debugging open source stuff or linux problems |
| 22:02:50 | <docpaul> too bad... i was hoping that there'd be at least one PIH guy that used irc often. :) |
| 22:02:58 | <docpaul> and could be our internal change agent... hah |
| 22:03:01 | <catullus> i used to use it a lot back in middle school lol |
| 22:03:05 | <docpaul> me too! |
| 22:03:09 | <docpaul> back in college though |
| 22:03:18 | <docpaul> back when i was into the whole warez scene, etc... haha |
| 22:03:27 | <catullus> haha nice |
| 22:03:43 | <catullus> been trying to find a warez version of rosetta stone so i can learn french before i head to rwanda |
| 22:03:54 | <docpaul> so i'm assuming you've been based out of boston for a while? |
| 22:04:03 | <catullus> i guess they probably don't have rosetta stone for kinyarwanda |
| 22:04:09 | <docpaul> hehe |
| 22:04:16 | <catullus> no, i'm spending a week in boston, starting monday, then heading to rwanda on april 2nd |
| 22:04:19 | <docpaul> i would imagine there's a number of french dialects |
| 22:04:57 | <docpaul> so where are you coming from prior to your work with PIH? |
| 22:05:03 | <catullus> i just graduated from stanford, bachelor's in computer science |
| 22:05:15 | <docpaul> nice... what led you to PIH? |
| 22:05:30 | <catullus> i did a lot of work with FACE AIDS (heard of it?) at Stanford |
| 22:05:37 | <docpaul> no, i havent actually |
| 22:05:45 | <docpaul> tell me a little, or at least send me a link? :) |
| 22:05:50 | <catullus> faceaids.org |
| 22:06:18 | <docpaul> hey, you're my kind of guy |
| 22:06:25 | <docpaul> geek with a philanthropic bent. :) |
| 22:06:31 | <catullus> they try to spread hiv/aids education among college students, and raise a lot of money for pih |
| 22:06:51 | <catullus> we have about 150 chapters around the country and have raised more than $1 million so far |
| 22:06:58 | <docpaul> very nice. |
| 22:07:13 | <catullus> haha yes! so few geeks w/ philanthropic bent... encouraging to meet another |
| 22:07:31 | <docpaul> well, needless to say, we're all very close friends... i consider hamish, darius, and the team family |
| 22:07:33 | <catullus> face aids is actually having a really hard time finding a CTO to replace me |
| 22:07:52 | <docpaul> sorry to hear that, but happy for our team. :) |
| 22:08:44 | <docpaul> i'm assuming you'll be doing education there in rwanda, or will you have time to develop, or will you just be filling in where needed kinda thing? |
| 22:08:44 | <catullus> they'll be OK =) they just won't be able to launch some of the cooler stuff until they find someone else |
| 22:09:15 | <catullus> filling in where needed, but i get the feeling there are a lot of technical needs, and i may also have time to develop |
| 22:09:31 | <docpaul> if you could pick one thing to do with a day... what would it be? |
| 22:09:46 | <docpaul> write code, teach, take care of others? |
| 22:10:05 | <catullus> well |
| 22:10:44 | <catullus> that's a tough question |
| 22:10:48 | <docpaul> :) |
| 22:10:54 | <catullus> i would probably prefer to teach+take care of others |
| 22:11:00 | <docpaul> there's not a right or wrong answer... |
| 22:11:11 | <catullus> but i feel that i would be most useful writing code, since i'm probably better at that at the moment |
| 22:11:20 | <docpaul> so coding isn't necessarily a passion, but you do it well |
| 22:11:37 | <catullus> however, i'm applying to med school right now, and after i'm done w/ that, i will probably be able to take care of others better than i'll be able to code |
| 22:11:43 | <docpaul> :) |
| 22:11:43 | <catullus> i love coding, just not as much as the other two |
| 22:11:52 | <catullus> i spent a lot of time at stanford as a TA for CS classes, which i loved |
| 22:11:55 | <catullus> got to teach and code |
| 22:12:01 | <catullus> and teach code =) |
| 22:12:50 | <catullus> how do you manage to keep up so well on CS stuff being a doctor full time? |
| 22:12:56 | <catullus> are you a doctor full time? |
| 22:13:20 | <catullus> was your undergrad in CS or another technical field? |
| 22:13:29 | <docpaul> haha. |
| 22:13:38 | <docpaul> you can't keep a geek from being a geek |
| 22:13:54 | <docpaul> technology is definitely a passion |
| 22:13:58 | <docpaul> but i love taking care of kids |
| 22:14:04 | <docpaul> i practice about 20% of my week |
| 22:14:11 | <docpaul> which works out to one day out of 5 |
| 22:14:40 | *** catulluspoeta has quit IRC |
| 22:14:53 | <catullus> that sounds like my dream career |
| 22:15:11 | <catullus> one of the MD programs i'm applying to as a dual degree program with an MS in health informatics |
| 22:15:34 | <docpaul> well, i tell you what |
| 22:15:40 | <docpaul> it *IS* a dream career |
| 22:16:03 | <catullus> =) |
| 22:16:20 | <catullus> it's good to hear i'm not just romanticizing it |
| 22:16:48 | <catullus> i had a professor at stanford who tried to split his time |
| 22:17:04 | <catullus> gave up on it, and advised against me having similar ideas |
| 22:17:20 | <docpaul> here's the thing |
| 22:17:48 | <docpaul> you can make it work... and in fact, you should come visit us in Indianapolis |
| 22:18:01 | <docpaul> i'll introduce you to a half dozen or so people who are practicing docs and geeks |
| 22:18:05 | <docpaul> i think you'd like where i work |
| 22:18:24 | <docpaul> it's the smartest career decision you could ever make |
| 22:18:38 | <catullus> that's awesome |
| 22:19:00 | * catullus googles regenstrief. |
| 22:19:16 | <docpaul> did you ever meet up with the google team while at stanford? |
| 22:19:24 | <docpaul> there's some neat folks in the health division |
| 22:19:31 | <docpaul> also in the open source division |
| 22:19:49 | <docpaul> a lot of medical students taking a year off just to get the experience |
| 22:19:51 | <catullus> i have a ton of friends at google.. they recruit my buddy stanford CS grads heavily |
| 22:19:51 | <docpaul> kinda cool |
| 22:20:13 | <docpaul> i would imagine |
| 22:20:15 | <catullus> as soon as i heard about google health a couple years go, i sent them my resume trying to get a summer internship |
| 22:20:24 | <catullus> but they weren't accepting interns |
| 22:20:27 | <catullus> =/ |
| 22:20:45 | <docpaul> they're still a bit secretive about it |
| 22:20:54 | <docpaul> but let me tell you, what they're doing with it is very cool |
| 22:21:01 | <catullus> i bet |
| 22:21:07 | <catullus> they seem to get most things right |
| 22:21:17 | <docpaul> surprisingly so... a little bit of magical thinking... but mostly on point |
| 22:21:34 | <docpaul> health information is a really tricky critter |
| 22:21:45 | <catullus> i'm really excited about google health; how do you think it will impact OpenMRS? |
| 22:21:45 | <docpaul> i hope you get to do a deep dive while you're working with PIH |
| 22:22:19 | <docpaul> it's funny you mention it... i'm actually trying to negotiate a project where we'd build a data sharing interface between OpenMRS and Google Health |
| 22:22:35 | <docpaul> b/c i think it'd be a good thing to do for the community |
| 22:22:58 | <catullus> you should just use the international emr data format standard ::joke:: |
| 22:23:13 | <docpaul> there's a new project, for example, where a team from UCLA is implementing openmrs for a series of tuberculosis clinics on skid row |
| 22:23:27 | <docpaul> it'd be most excellent to give those patients access to their own data |
| 22:23:50 | <docpaul> haha... so, you know enough to know the deep challenges involved with health data formats. :) |
| 22:24:45 | <catullus> yeah; i've taken some classes, but i haven't had the chance to get my hands dirty until now |
| 22:24:50 | <docpaul> i think systems like openmrs and google health PHR solution are quite complementary |
| 22:25:06 | <catullus> the stanford biomedical informatics classes have zero coding in them... which sucks for geeks like us |
| 22:25:07 | <docpaul> b/c they service different end users |
| 22:25:11 | <docpaul> oh man |
| 22:25:16 | <docpaul> who taught you? |
| 22:25:25 | <catullus> i took a class from mark musen |
| 22:25:32 | <docpaul> he's a nice enough guy |
| 22:25:39 | <catullus> he's a nice guy, yes |
| 22:25:43 | <catullus> but his class is |
| 22:25:48 | <docpaul> a bit of the ivory tower side |
| 22:25:49 | <catullus> not aimed at CS students |
| 22:26:14 | <catullus> there's a real problem in that he tries to get both CS students and MD students to take it |
| 22:26:21 | <docpaul> hmm |
| 22:26:27 | <catullus> so he has to be abstract enough so that the MD students can handle it |
| 22:26:35 | <docpaul> so it's such a rudimentary level that you cant get dirty |
| 22:26:36 | <docpaul> yep |
| 22:26:43 | <catullus> there's just not enough interest among CS students to have a separate class |
| 22:26:51 | <catullus> so i can't blame him |
| 22:26:57 | <catullus> but the class was really frustrating |
| 22:27:08 | <docpaul> what aspects of medical informatics are interesting to you? |
| 22:27:27 | <catullus> number one... decreasing medical errors |
| 22:27:38 | <docpaul> mmhmm.. big topic |
| 22:28:20 | <catullus> as i'm sure you know, that landmark IOM report said that, what was it, 70%? of medical errors are from adverse drug drug interactions |
| 22:28:23 | <docpaul> would you come at it from the perspective of decision support applications, or through aggregate data analysis to change system behaviors? |
| 22:28:32 | <docpaul> yep. |
| 22:28:53 | <catullus> seems like one of many things that could be fixed with better tech |
| 22:29:28 | <docpaul> yeah, that's a good starting point for sure... when you do the deep dive of how people represent the medical knowledge though, you'll begin to see how wickedly hard it is |
| 22:29:34 | <docpaul> i build decision support systems during my day job |
| 22:30:02 | <docpaul> and man, it's hard to appreciate how hard it is to build rule based systems |
| 22:30:10 | <docpaul> until you do it a couple of times |
| 22:30:20 | <docpaul> let's put it this way... i have plenty of job security |
| 22:30:21 | <catullus> how are you representing the rules? |
| 22:30:23 | <catullus> haha |
| 22:30:27 | <docpaul> arden syntax |
| 22:30:37 | <catullus> oof |
| 22:30:49 | <docpaul> i like arden... it's granular, and practical. :) |
| 22:31:05 | <docpaul> the more abstracted, guideline-based formalisms are just not practical |
| 22:31:29 | <catullus> dr. musen badmouths arden to no end... don't remember why exactly |
| 22:31:59 | <docpaul> here's hard reality 1: you simply don't have access to rich data, so you're left having to build simpler rules |
| 22:32:17 | <docpaul> of course, marc helped to hatch an alternative. :) |
| 22:32:34 | <catullus> i see =) |
| 22:32:57 | <docpaul> hey, the bottom line is that all logical representaiton standards have their weaknesses |
| 22:33:37 | <docpaul> but arden feels kind of like a method |
| 22:33:48 | <docpaul> it loads variables |
| 22:33:51 | <docpaul> runs logic |
| 22:33:55 | <docpaul> and returns an action |
| 22:34:05 | <docpaul> it's clean and if you code, it makes sense |
| 22:34:07 | <catullus> so, if there isn't yet rich data, why focus on building rich data first and DSS second? |
| 22:34:13 | <catullus> *why not |
| 22:34:31 | <docpaul> haha... that's great... that's what OpenMRS is all about, my friend. :) |
| 22:34:43 | <docpaul> b/c without the rich data, there's no decision support |
| 22:34:57 | <docpaul> that's why you'll see all the rigor in OpenMRS focusing on knowledge representation |
| 22:35:38 | <docpaul> do you know how much it pains me to have to spend so much time building up this framework that allows for highly structured coded data, and not be able to do the fun decision support stuff? :D |
| 22:35:45 | <docpaul> we're getting really close though |
| 22:36:39 | <catullus> i saw in the talk that openmrs uses, what's it called? |
| 22:36:47 | <catullus> with the attribute-entity |
| 22:36:51 | <catullus> reminds me of frames |
| 22:37:16 | <docpaul> i know you'll be very busy with implementation while in rwanda, but i pray that you'll take the time to learn why we made the decisions we made with openmrs |
| 22:37:26 | <docpaul> that process taught me so much about medical informatics |
| 22:37:32 | <docpaul> yeah, it's EAV |
| 22:37:40 | <docpaul> entity-attribute-value |
| 22:37:45 | <catullus> right |
| 22:37:54 | <catullus> how different is that from frames? |
| 22:38:14 | <docpaul> it's a bit out of date with the current data model, but: http://openmrs.org/wiki/Obs_Table_Primer |
| 22:39:00 | <catullus> thx |
| 22:39:02 | <docpaul> i have to be honest, i dont know what a frame is |
| 22:39:08 | <docpaul> teach me |
| 22:39:43 | <catullus> so instead of having joe pulse 160 / joe diastolic 80 |
| 22:40:00 | <catullus> joe just appears once at the top of the frame |
| 22:40:23 | <catullus> and any of the value fields can be complex objects |
| 22:40:23 | <docpaul> oh |
| 22:40:35 | <docpaul> it's kinda different actually |
| 22:40:37 | <catullus> to be honest, i'm not sure what it looks like in SQL |
| 22:40:47 | <catullus> just from a conceptual POV |
| 22:41:04 | <catullus> have you heard of protege? |
| 22:41:06 | <docpaul> we abstract out all notions/metadata for a given medical idea and describe them as the "concept" object |
| 22:41:07 | <docpaul> yes |
| 22:41:20 | <catullus> protege uses frames for its knowledge representation |
| 22:41:45 | <docpaul> we reference concepts as the codeset for both questions and answers in the observation table |
| 22:42:09 | <docpaul> so, there's a concept for urine color, and a concept for yellow |
| 22:43:00 | <catullus> so is there anything that isn't a concept? |
| 22:43:07 | <docpaul> yes. |
| 22:43:13 | <docpaul> a person's first name |
| 22:43:46 | <docpaul> a concept refers to a medical idea |
| 22:43:50 | <docpaul> not a demographic idea |
| 22:43:53 | <catullus> i see |
| 22:44:21 | <catullus> i hope i get the chance to delve deeply into the openmrs nitty gritty; to be honest, i'm not completely sure what my job will be like =) |
| 22:44:22 | <docpaul> at some level, you have to make some conscious decisions to not over-normalize your design |
| 22:44:45 | <catullus> over-normalize? |
| 22:44:46 | <docpaul> there's a balance of extensibility vs. performance |
| 22:45:05 | <catullus> i think i get it |
| 22:45:22 | <docpaul> well, you can't make "hemoglobin" a column in a table for a host of reasons, but it's probably ok to make the dob a column |
| 22:45:49 | <catullus> haha |
| 22:46:12 | <catullus> that brings me to another question, how are patients identified? |
| 22:46:18 | <docpaul> :) |
| 22:46:29 | <docpaul> they're identified however they need to be given an environment |
| 22:46:42 | <docpaul> for example, in Kenya |
| 22:47:01 | <docpaul> one of the most distinguishing demographic characteristics are one's tribe |
| 22:47:16 | <docpaul> many of them have three or more names, but they have no inherent order |
| 22:47:23 | <docpaul> they use them interchangably |
| 22:47:40 | <catullus> wow.. i had no idea |
| 22:47:43 | <docpaul> however, in tanzania, they have a notion of a "ten cell" |
| 22:47:57 | <docpaul> which is a bundle of ten homes... the entire country consists of ten cells |
| 22:48:02 | <docpaul> each of them are numbered |
| 22:48:08 | <docpaul> there's also a ten cell leader |
| 22:48:21 | <docpaul> so.. :) just to give you a small taste |
| 22:48:41 | <catullus> so a returning patient walks into a clinic |
| 22:48:45 | <docpaul> throw away all your preconceived notions on patient identity. :) |
| 22:48:59 | <catullus> how does he identify himself so that we know who he is? |
| 22:49:05 | <catullus> just name and ten cell? |
| 22:49:11 | <docpaul> we ask them for demographics and hopefully they've brought their card with an identifier |
| 22:49:31 | <docpaul> match based on trying to capture as many identifiers as we can |
| 22:49:40 | <catullus> ah; so everyone has cards? (i really know nothing atm) |
| 22:49:49 | <docpaul> a medical record number is just another patient identifier |
| 22:50:10 | <docpaul> when in resource constrained areas, some card systems hold up well... in others, they just don't |
| 22:50:56 | <docpaul> the more discriminating the demographic characteristic, the more identifying it is... so we just try to support all of them |
| 22:51:05 | <docpaul> people have built modules to generate medical record numbers |
| 22:51:07 | <docpaul> in various format |
| 22:51:08 | <docpaul> s |
| 22:51:12 | <docpaul> generate cards |
| 22:51:17 | <catullus> i see |
| 22:51:39 | <docpaul> we've got a rock star who's built a module which automatically attempts to match patients based on statistical inferences |
| 22:51:49 | <catullus> verrrry cool |
| 22:52:06 | <docpaul> yeah, he's one of my best friends... once again, a family practitioner who's a geek |
| 22:52:20 | <docpaul> he in fact was trained at MIT to be a rocket scientist. :) |
| 22:52:33 | <catullus> aero/astro? |
| 22:52:33 | <docpaul> he works at regenstrief as well |
| 22:52:39 | <docpaul> aero |
| 22:52:45 | <catullus> awesome haha |
| 22:53:03 | <docpaul> so, don't give up on that dream |
| 22:53:09 | <docpaul> we need dually trained doctors who know cs |
| 22:53:40 | <catullus> i won't... it's a waiting game now.. i really want to get into this MD/MS program, i think it would be perfect for me... supposed to know by mid april |
| 22:53:50 | <docpaul> with your pedigree, i so hope that hamish and co. see your value and allow you to be a coding geek |
| 22:54:14 | <docpaul> implementation, while valuable and rewarding, doesn't take advantage of your training |
| 22:54:43 | <catullus> yeah; i think i would be more useful as a coder, even if i'd really enjoy implementation too |
| 22:54:47 | <catullus> maybe i'll be able to do both |
| 22:54:47 | <docpaul> i think you'll get along well with justin |
| 22:54:54 | <docpaul> have you met him yet? |
| 22:55:11 | <catullus> no; i actually haven't met anyone in person yet besides henry epino |
| 22:55:20 | <docpaul> want me to give you a run down? |
| 22:55:26 | <catullus> yeah haha that would be awesome |
| 22:55:40 | <catullus> ::takes out notepad:: |
| 22:55:43 | <docpaul> so, hamish of course is their fearless leader, and i have a great friendship with him |
| 22:55:55 | <docpaul> he's very much on the project management side |
| 22:56:03 | <docpaul> and doesn't do much with development |
| 22:56:04 | * catullus notes hamish==fearless_leader |
| 22:56:26 | <docpaul> the PIH team expects a lot of his group, and he's constantly red-lined |
| 22:56:56 | <docpaul> i additionally put a lot of pressure on him, as he's in a tough position... |
| 22:57:04 | <docpaul> he has to meet the needs of these implementations |
| 22:57:05 | <catullus> good; i have an unusual masochism concerning red-lining =) |
| 22:57:22 | <docpaul> but he also has a commitment to this project to do things the right way |
| 22:57:38 | <docpaul> i tend to tow the line on making sure openmrs is solid, scalable alongside burke |
| 22:58:18 | <docpaul> you understand the challenge... it's the entry chapter in the "mythical man month"... the difference between making a "program" and making a "product" |
| 22:58:26 | <docpaul> i want product. :) |
| 22:58:56 | <docpaul> b/c i think it's in making an open source product that eventually saves all of our asses from the overwhelming demands |
| 22:59:09 | <docpaul> we frankly can't do this ourselves |
| 22:59:14 | <docpaul> but anyways... |
| 22:59:32 | <docpaul> darius is the lead developer... also super nice, idiosyncratic personality |
| 22:59:57 | <catullus> noted |
| 23:00:15 | <docpaul> his development style is more focused on getting it done... he's very productive, but also pressured to just make it work and make it fast |
| 23:00:35 | <docpaul> good cook |
| 23:00:45 | <docpaul> charming, opinionated |
| 23:01:19 | <docpaul> justin is a hell of a coder... quiet, unassuming, wants to build things the right way and doesn't like to be pressured to build quickly |
| 23:01:20 | <docpaul> he likes design |
| 23:01:27 | <docpaul> design first and then code. :) |
| 23:01:40 | <docpaul> witty personality |
| 23:02:09 | <docpaul> christian is very charismatic... very driven by the mission |
| 23:02:12 | <docpaul> an evangelist |
| 23:02:18 | <docpaul> also has a good eye for ui design |
| 23:02:22 | <docpaul> good developer |
| 23:02:31 | <docpaul> they're all such good guys |
| 23:02:38 | <docpaul> you'll enjoy them |
| 23:02:39 | <catullus> i think i'm going to be working mostly w/ christian |
| 23:03:10 | <docpaul> do you consider yourself introverted or extroverted? |
| 23:03:42 | <catullus> i lean more towards extroverted in small groups |
| 23:03:50 | <catullus> more towands introverted in large groups |
| 23:04:10 | <docpaul> good... christian is extroverted in all circumstances... but it's a good extroverted |
| 23:04:29 | <catullus> fun |
| 23:04:37 | <docpaul> i'll always remember the time when we were in SA, and he told me how "openmrs was in his heart" |
| 23:04:42 | <docpaul> i was touched. :) |
| 23:04:48 | <catullus> =) |
| 23:04:54 | <docpaul> you guys are going to get along great |
| 23:04:59 | <docpaul> he's just a good, fun guy |
| 23:05:11 | <catullus> i'm excited |
| 23:05:26 | <docpaul> you should be, i guarantee what you'll do will be life changing |
| 23:05:37 | <docpaul> just going to kenya for the first time was life changing for me |
| 23:05:49 | <docpaul> not many people have such an opportunity. :) |
| 23:05:51 | <catullus> i have no doubt... i don't plan on ending my openmrs work when i have to go on to something else (i.e. med school) |
| 23:06:15 | <catullus> i still have one nagging question, sorry this is offtopic |
| 23:06:19 | <docpaul> sure |
| 23:06:38 | <catullus> how do you think the release of google health will impact openmrs? |
| 23:06:57 | <catullus> 1) any chance google health will be open sourse? |
| 23:06:58 | <docpaul> i don't... i think they are very complementary approaches |
| 23:07:00 | <catullus> source |
| 23:07:11 | <docpaul> no, it'll be SaaS |
| 23:07:14 | <docpaul> like most of their work |
| 23:07:26 | <catullus> SaaS? |
| 23:07:37 | <docpaul> software as a service... aka ASP |
| 23:07:58 | <catullus> how do you think they complement one another? |
| 23:08:43 | <docpaul> google health is all about giving a patient access to their own data and helping individuals take care of themselves |
| 23:09:04 | <docpaul> openmrs is all about helping health care professionals take better care of patients |
| 23:09:26 | <docpaul> we would love nothing more than to transact and share data with such systems |
| 23:09:33 | <catullus> i see; i see |
| 23:09:46 | <catullus> do you think HIPAA will expand to cover third parties like google health? |
| 23:09:56 | <docpaul> it's a very hot question right now |
| 23:10:06 | *** rmall3 has joined #openmrs |
| 23:10:17 | <docpaul> there's quite a debate raging in the community about this |
| 23:10:36 | <catullus> what do you personally think? |
| 23:10:38 | <docpaul> my guess: it's safe to say that patients want health care providers to have access to their information |
| 23:10:52 | <docpaul> that will drive what society does |
| 23:11:22 | <docpaul> as long as you inform an individual as to how their data is being used |
| 23:11:35 | <docpaul> then i am all for sharing data between health care entities |
| 23:11:52 | <docpaul> google's solution is a vault that an individual throttles themselves |
| 23:11:57 | *** nribeka has joined #openmrs |
| 23:12:03 | <docpaul> heya rmall3. :) |
| 23:12:15 | <rmall3> hello paul |
| 23:12:16 | <docpaul> nribeka... hello to you as well |
| 23:12:30 | <rmall3> Ben wanted me to join me long time |
| 23:12:34 | <nribeka> hello docpaul |
| 23:12:51 | <catullus> any PIHers in here? =) |
| 23:12:54 | <nribeka> wow docpaul, you up at this time? |
| 23:12:56 | <docpaul> ah, are you an indianapolis guy? :) |
| 23:13:35 | <rmall3> I am in San Jose,CA |
| 23:13:41 | <docpaul> yes, mr. chase has kept me up... but man, he's a new partners-in-health employee |
| 23:13:52 | <docpaul> so, it's worth it. :) |
| 23:13:56 | <docpaul> pih = my family |
| 23:14:11 | <catullus> sorry for keeping you up =) thanks for all the incredibly useful info |
| 23:14:23 | <docpaul> rmall3: good deal... what brings you to the openmrs community? |
| 23:14:45 | * catullus misses cali terribly. |
| 23:14:54 | <docpaul> catullus: nah, it's my pleasure really... i'm always so thankful that more and more people are coming to help the cause |
| 23:15:09 | <rmall3> docpaul, I am working on http://dev.openmrs.org/ticket/560 |
| 23:15:13 | <docpaul> in some ways, you'll be helping me... the least i can do is take some time to get to know you |
| 23:15:17 | <rmall3> Move MRNGenerator to a Module |
| 23:15:22 | *** burke has quit IRC |
| 23:15:26 | <docpaul> oh, how cool. :) |
| 23:15:40 | <docpaul> i remember the days when it was just burke and i |
| 23:15:58 | <docpaul> now, i'm meeting people like rmall3... who are writing code and i don't even know about it |
| 23:16:02 | <docpaul> it's surreal |
| 23:16:08 | <rmall3> :) |
| 23:16:10 | <catullus> pretty sweet |
| 23:16:12 | <docpaul> and incredible |
| 23:16:20 | <docpaul> rmall3: thank you! |
| 23:16:23 | *** burke has joined #openmrs |
| 23:16:23 | *** ChanServ sets mode: +o burke |
| 23:16:28 | <rmall3> I am in constant touch with Ben, and he is guiding me with design issues |
| 23:16:39 | <docpaul> awesome... you having fun? |
| 23:16:47 | <rmall3> yeah |
| 23:17:07 | <docpaul> rmall3: we havent met in person at an AMIA meeting, have we? |
| 23:17:29 | <rmall3> yes we did, @ the coffee bar @ sheraton |
| 23:17:30 | <nribeka> docpaul: wow, so initially it was just you and burke? |
| 23:17:53 | <docpaul> nri: yep, sure enough... in a little home in eldoret, kenya |
| 23:18:03 | <docpaul> rmall3: oh hi! |
| 23:18:09 | <nribeka> wow, cool ... |
| 23:18:18 | <nribeka> AMIA in Phily? |
| 23:18:28 | <docpaul> good deal, i'm so happy you've found a way to make it back to the community |
| 23:18:41 | <rmall3> I read on the mailing list that OpenMRS will @ mysql conf in Santa Clara |
| 23:18:41 | <docpaul> burke, you there? |
| 23:18:54 | <docpaul> rmall3: indeed... ben and justin will be there |
| 23:18:55 | * burke is lurking |
| 23:19:06 | *** burke is now known as lurke |
| 23:19:16 | <docpaul> burke: meet chase, a new PIH employee... |
| 23:19:19 | <rmall3> oh I would definitely like to meet them here |
| 23:19:21 | * catullus tips hat. |
| 23:19:23 | *** lurke is now known as burke |
| 23:19:36 | <docpaul> no lurkey for burkey the turkey |
| 23:19:40 | * burke tips hat too |
| 23:19:50 | <docpaul> chase will be working in rwanda |
| 23:19:53 | <burke> did you just make that up all by yourself? |
| 23:19:56 | <burke> hehe |
| 23:19:59 | <burke> cule |
| 23:20:09 | <burke> got any friends that want to work in Kenya? :p |
| 23:20:15 | <docpaul> seriously.. hah |
| 23:20:28 | <catullus> i'm sure i could scrounge some up |
| 23:20:36 | <catullus> i know a bunch of unemployed stanford CS grads |
| 23:20:58 | <docpaul> so burke, chase is a stanford trained cs guy who took classes with musen and wants to be a medical informatics guy when he grows up |
| 23:20:59 | <nribeka> burke: i want to go to Kenya someday if i have the chance to :-) |
| 23:21:25 | <burke> nribeka: can we buy you a one-way ticket ;) |
| 23:21:29 | <catullus> haha |
| 23:21:39 | <burke> the return trip can be purchased in code. :D |
| 23:21:46 | <docpaul> we need a good developer in kenya big time |
| 23:22:00 | <nribeka> burke: lolz ... i know a faculty here who originally come from Kenya :-=) |
| 23:22:02 | <nribeka> :-) |
| 23:22:04 | <docpaul> if we could have someone for a year... man, that'd be sensational |
| 23:22:05 | <burke> chase, you couldn't ask for a sweeter gig |
| 23:22:26 | <catullus> it sounds awesome to me |
| 23:22:37 | <nribeka> burke: are you in Kenya right now? |
| 23:22:49 | <docpaul> he thought it might be unrealistic to be a geek and be a doctor. :) |
| 23:22:52 | <burke> we'd really like someone -- like PIH's Christian -- who could spend ~9 mo in Kenya and ~3 in Indy w/ us |
| 23:23:01 | <burke> nope. just my parents. |
| 23:23:02 | <docpaul> gosh, that'd so totally rocked |
| 23:23:07 | <docpaul> er, rock |
| 23:23:17 | <docpaul> we would hire you... immediately |
| 23:23:41 | <catullus> i might be able to do it if whatever med school accepts me lets me defer =) |
| 23:24:00 | <catullus> but i also might owe PIH more time too |
| 23:24:05 | <nribeka> docpaul and burke: i want to work on the webapp update module and planning to use Cargo (http://cargo.codehaus.org) as they have support to some servlet container :-) |
| 23:24:42 | <docpaul> nri: awesome. did you see our updated description of the project? |
| 23:24:58 | <burke> nribeka: the tricks are being non-tomcat-centric and (obviously) having something on the server that can survive the webapp (and possibly tomcat) restarting |
| 23:25:11 | <nribeka> yeah i see that too |
| 23:25:18 | <burke> does cargo act as a wrapper -- i.e., install cargo with openmrs inside? |
| 23:25:47 | <nribeka> cargo is a wrapper to manage the container behavior |
| 23:26:00 | <burke> I'm trying to imagine how cargo survives while the OpenMRS WAR is reloaded. |
| 23:26:02 | <burke> ah cool. |
| 23:26:13 | <nribeka> but they don't support tomcat 6 (yet) |
| 23:26:26 | <burke> that's what I was picturing. is it just another WAR -- i.e., would work with glassfish, jboss, etc.? |
| 23:26:28 | <docpaul> it 0wns the container |
| 23:26:29 | <catullus> openmrs runs on tomcat 6? oo fancy =) |
| 23:26:41 | <burke> actually, we run on Tomcat 7 too. |
| 23:26:48 | <nribeka> burke: lolz ... |
| 23:27:01 | <burke> you gotta be prepared, y'know |
| 23:27:09 | <catullus> haha |
| 23:27:28 | <docpaul> OpenMRS has a bigger schlong than your proprietary EMR |
| 23:27:29 | <burke> actually, one of my (many) hopes for OpenMRS is to see it scale into a distributed model |
| 23:27:37 | <nribeka> burke: that's true |
| 23:28:01 | <catullus> docpaul: anything w/ yiddish words is inherently funny |
| 23:28:01 | <burke> we can do well up to 10s of thousands of patients...maybe hundreds. |
| 23:28:06 | <docpaul> heheh |
| 23:28:16 | <nribeka> somehow i feel in the night the channel become more alive :-) |
| 23:28:25 | <burke> but I'd love to have a design that could scale just by adding more hardware. |
| 23:28:50 | <burke> i'm just waiting for the call from upstairs... ;) |
| 23:29:00 | <burke> "why are you still awake?" |
| 23:29:11 | <burke> I only get one of those. |
| 23:29:19 | <burke> :D |
| 23:29:38 | <docpaul> I had to put my wife to sleep, lay in bed (totally awake of course), and then slip out once she's sound asleep |
| 23:29:42 | <burke> but I just stepped into a brand spankin' new MacBook Pro this week. :p |
| 23:30:00 | <nribeka> docpaul: haha ... |
| 23:30:03 | <burke> docpaul: did you have to do the hug and roll? |
| 23:30:21 | <docpaul> she likes to do the interlocking finger hand hold thing at night... |
| 23:30:30 | <docpaul> and so that's a tough one to negotiate out of |
| 23:30:34 | <catullus> chinese finger prison |
| 23:30:37 | * r0bby LOOKS AROUND |
| 23:30:50 | <r0bby> burke: hi :P |
| 23:30:50 | <burke> geez...that's hard to beat. you must be like houdini |
| 23:30:57 | <burke> r0bby is back! |
| 23:31:03 | <r0bby> i was back :P |
| 23:31:11 | <burke> I thought I kicked you out and you gave up on us |
| 23:31:14 | <r0bby> nah |
| 23:31:37 | <burke> now that I know that you're shorter than me, I don't feel the need to kick any more ;) |
| 23:31:43 | <nribeka> robby: haha i saw that in the chat logs, somebody feel bad about it :-) |
| 23:32:02 | <burke> he just called me old and short. |
| 23:32:16 | <docpaul> oh man, that was so classic |
| 23:32:16 | <burke> at least he didn't say I was fat. then again, I haven't grepped the logs |
| 23:32:36 | <r0bby> nribeka: I called burke an old short leprechaun |
| 23:32:40 | <docpaul> he saw the google video... and was like "man, burke is so old"... "i mean he's so short" |
| 23:32:46 | <docpaul> hehehe |
| 23:32:53 | <burke> and it's funny...'coz I always tell people that I'm the good looking one (b/w Paul & me) |
| 23:33:03 | <nribeka> all: lolz ... haha ... |
| 23:33:24 | <docpaul> it was like a double freudian entendre |
| 23:33:32 | <docpaul> with whipped cream on top |
| 23:33:33 | <docpaul> hehehe |
| 23:33:33 | <burke> docpaul: have you done any trolling in the java chat rooms lately? |
| 23:33:41 | <docpaul> not tonight |
| 23:33:58 | <docpaul> i did two nights ago, and brought in like 5 people with one plug |
| 23:34:07 | <burke> it's getting a bit late for burkey. lorrie and I may be heading up to Michigan in the morning |
| 23:34:20 | <r0bby> yeh burke |
| 23:34:27 | <r0bby> old people need their beauty rest :P |
| 23:34:34 | <docpaul> oh yeah, first weekend in a while with the weather getting better |
| 23:34:35 | * r0bby prepares for the kick |
| 23:34:35 | <burke> i know...i know...old man getting tired. zzzzzzzzzzz |
| 23:34:53 | <docpaul> go enjoy it |
| 23:34:55 | <nribeka> i'm just gonna watch you guys :-) |
| 23:35:04 | <r0bby> nribeka: I plan on coding |
| 23:35:07 | <docpaul> night burke |
| 23:35:07 | * burke starts tying his kickin' shoes |
| 23:35:08 | <r0bby> when i get off my lazy ass |
| 23:35:14 | <burke> hehe |
| 23:35:21 | <docpaul> pop off a ticket or something |
| 23:35:21 | <nribeka> robby: i read your blog too |
| 23:35:30 | <r0bby> nribeka: eh yeh so did Neal Gafter |
| 23:35:30 | <burke> i've got to write an iPhone app. maybe tomorrow. |
| 23:35:34 | <r0bby> of sun fame |
| 23:35:45 | <docpaul> robby seems like the guy who could make the groovy integration really happen |
| 23:35:59 | <r0bby> I've been meaning to play with grails |
| 23:36:17 | <burke> the problem with rails/grails is that they go down to the db |
| 23:36:18 | <r0bby> there's gotta be a way to disable the Spring/Hibernate |
| 23:36:32 | <burke> we need grapi ... that binds to an api. :p |
| 23:36:47 | <r0bby> this is gonna be work :< |
| 23:36:51 | <docpaul> what's your blog again r0bby? |
| 23:36:59 | <r0bby> http://robbyoconnor.blogspot.com |
| 23:37:08 | <r0bby> I just coded a FCM Swing example tonight |
| 23:38:27 | <burke> i would comment on your code...but I can see you don't care for comments. ;) |
| 23:38:33 | <burke> sorry...that was low. |
| 23:38:46 | <r0bby> REALLLLLLLY low |
| 23:38:48 | <docpaul> hehe |
| 23:38:52 | <burke> actually, it's a sweet blog. |
| 23:38:56 | <burke> groovy is groovy |
| 23:39:01 | <r0bby> and the fibonacci sequence program has holes |
| 23:39:02 | <nribeka> haha ... true burke |
| 23:39:05 | <burke> that's the only part I can understand. :p |
| 23:39:23 | <r0bby> eh i tried to explain things as clearly as i could |
| 23:39:32 | <burke> where's the pi-to-the-last-digit program? |
| 23:39:45 | <r0bby> I'm not into math crap |
| 23:39:48 | <burke> hehe |
| 23:39:54 | <burke> good answer |
| 23:40:12 | <docpaul> heheh |
| 23:40:29 | <nribeka> haha ... |
| 23:40:51 | <r0bby> I gotta get back to groovy at some point |
| 23:41:03 | <r0bby> I took an excursion and i can't remember...oh yeah antlr |
| 23:41:20 | <r0bby> and now closures |
| 23:41:26 | <r0bby> talk about extreme add |
| 23:41:27 | <docpaul> sweet.. you work with antlr? |
| 23:41:32 | <r0bby> I'm learning it |
| 23:41:49 | <r0bby> or attempting to |
| 23:41:50 | <docpaul> one of my colleagues used antlr to go from arden syntax to java classes |
| 23:42:01 | <docpaul> that code in fact is in the repository if you're interested |
| 23:42:06 | <r0bby> eh |
| 23:42:08 | <r0bby> where? |
| 23:42:12 | <r0bby> trunk? |
| 23:42:17 | <docpaul> yes |
| 23:42:23 | <docpaul> under logic i think |
| 23:42:55 | <burke> it's probably in the report-api-refactoring branch now. I assume that's what they're using. maybe not. |
| 23:43:16 | <docpaul> oh right, sorry |
| 23:43:22 | <docpaul> it is... i just checked |
| 23:43:28 | <r0bby> argh |
| 23:43:35 | * r0bby pulls |
| 23:44:02 | *** cancer has quit IRC |
| 23:44:41 | <docpaul> burke: whatcha make of the whole titus brown query? |
| 23:44:49 | <docpaul> do you remember lh bringing him up? |
| 23:45:28 | <burke> no |
| 23:45:55 | <docpaul> not quite sure how to respond to him... |
| 23:46:32 | <docpaul> hey, btw... does the macbook handle paint.net well? |
| 23:46:34 | <catullus> titus tatius... king of the sabines |
| 23:48:41 | <burke> docpaul: very funny |
| 23:48:58 | <docpaul> ;) |
| 23:49:44 | <docpaul> i just want to make total sure that i'm not going to have decreased productivity |
| 23:49:53 | <docpaul> i'm getting very close to pulling the trigger |
| 23:50:37 | <burke> i found something out that might slow you down |
| 23:50:49 | <docpaul> http://ivory.idyll.org/about.html |
| 23:50:51 | <docpaul> hahah |
| 23:51:08 | <docpaul> (That's not a picture of him, unless you're a bill collector.) |
| 23:51:53 | <burke> all good...except the MSU thing ;) |
| 23:52:07 | <burke> no igo tip for the macbook pro |
| 23:52:13 | <docpaul> hmm... |
| 23:52:31 | <docpaul> that's an interesting problem |
| 23:52:36 | <burke> apple has not agreed to license the magsafe connector for 3rd parties...yet |
| 23:53:09 | <burke> the little magnet thing...i guess steve thinks he can make a few more bucks by controlling access to it as well |
| 23:53:30 | *** rmall3 has left #openmrs |
| 23:54:04 | <docpaul> hehe |
| 23:54:25 | <docpaul> you'd pay extra for the tip |
| 23:54:48 | <r0bby> BAH |
| 23:55:06 | <r0bby> I wanna see the antlr grammar |
| 23:55:22 | <docpaul> it's in there |
| 23:55:38 | <r0bby> where |
| 23:55:40 | <r0bby> which package |
| 23:55:44 | <docpaul> sec |
| 23:56:26 | <r0bby> this branch? >> http://svn.openmrs.org/openmrs/branches/report_api_refactoring/ |
| 23:56:27 | <OpenMRSBot> <http://ln-s.net/1iHt> (at svn.openmrs.org) |
| 23:56:29 | <docpaul> http://dev.openmrs.org/browser/openmrs/branches/report_api_refactoring/src/api/org/openmrs/arden/ArdenRecognizer.g?rev=3094 |
| 23:56:32 | <OpenMRSBot> <http://ln-s.net/1iHu> (at dev.openmrs.org) |
| 23:57:41 | <r0bby> that's not antlr3 |
| 23:57:45 | <r0bby> that's antlr v2 |
| 23:57:54 | <r0bby> wait yes it is |
| 23:58:01 | <docpaul> couldnt comment on the differences.... should be the latest though |
| 23:58:07 | <docpaul> knowing vibha |
| 23:58:28 | <r0bby> nice |
| 23:59:10 | <docpaul> to me, the ideas behind antlr are among some of the most intellectually challenging |
| 23:59:21 | <burke> the same things can be done in 4 lines of groovy ;) |
| 23:59:36 | <docpaul> the fundamental idea is straight forward, but it takes a special person to make a grammar file |
| 23:59:37 | <r0bby> what the FUCK |
| 23:59:43 | <burke> hehe |
| 23:59:48 | <r0bby> import java.lang.Integer; |
| 23:59:51 | <r0bby> .... |